From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Nov 22 13:00:42 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCJY0-0007R5-H8 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:00:41 -0800 Received: from mail-yw0-f187.google.com ([209.85.211.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCJXp-0007OV-T5 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:00:40 -0800 Received: by ywh17 with SMTP id 17so4573425ywh.2 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:00:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:from:to :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:x-mailer; bh=hn6KLjzizlcmrplbXpbuQFiOWndr5fOmGEQVPbE4rc0=; b=QB586ndVw2zqlCas6xu68/DkQRf4i7BKl1W8uhv+R6twu118mnh29/Z/L+7GeBS/VD DUTLNfgOPqOz8EmG/8YVS/Ckb+qc2VrRJ6ELIK8WdD2fiDDE+PqExdUUaKh2gHsTYz4K JgIRtLW7a6v9oiDWvpfvV/skLsCROZX5wiYVM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:from:to:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :x-mailer; b=nin7K3TkZi6aZE/FGpSSMDHIcRLc2xhpvX99l1lmcbpP2eYbbbUgHR+zLJqz2HJNAg kV7E47oIA2Bc44CNhRqzGp6Grdi4GObvp5zoISNoro2nx68UkholYJNv6BojHcLcewzX 5zaA1c281On79hYaObNl6VD0aC5dHx65xGcAk= Received: by 10.90.16.9 with SMTP id 9mr5674050agp.11.1258923611975; Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-10-132-211-252.uawifi.arizona.edu (uawifi-nat-210-16.arizona.edu [150.135.210.16]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 9sm1601076yxf.41.2009.11.22.13.00.11 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 22 Nov 2009 13:00:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <7D2D5FD9-4849-45F3-8540-EC57C0B9C026@choi.name> From: Joshua Choi To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <12d58c160911221005xc2e53d3q24f9d0d09ba2024@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sel- vs se Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:00:08 -0700 References: <200911221105.31626.phma@phma.optus.nu> <36F41326-A754-44CD-BAB7-D998075C54CE@choi.name> <12d58c160911221005xc2e53d3q24f9d0d09ba2024@mail.gmail.com> X-archive-position: 2571 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: joshua@choi.name Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Oops, I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant "selbo'e" and "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo using "sel", and the other being the cmavo followed by the gismu. Is there any difference in usage between using the lujvo and using the cmavo +gismu? On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote: > > On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote: > Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo > and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi" > and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selklani"? One forms > phrases—don't know if you'd call them "tanru"—and the other forms > words > —which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified" > meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does > that affect words like selcti? > > Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If > "seltci" > (or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a > difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes something > traded", > i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean that, and > could also > mean "flag that is traded". > > > On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi > wrote: > Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference > between pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no difference > at all, right? They're semantically equivalent, and in this case > they even have the same amount of syllables. > > So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, > or does one not have to care at all about it? > > Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. > The canonical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score > among the possible rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring > algorithm (CLL 4:12). > > mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan