From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Nov 24 09:37:18 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:37:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCzKH-0005ta-Cx for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:37:18 -0800 Received: from mail-ew0-f223.google.com ([209.85.219.223]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NCzKD-0005sv-2p for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:37:17 -0800 Received: by ewy23 with SMTP id 23so898518ewy.4 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:37:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ug+5W/pF+4Ff/SND9l2YWnJ3PSuxdfdptgRRdtWSUDY=; b=uGkyjn6jA5TirvQ+Qatdlhmat/rqonyj7NP54h0bYcLjROqoZ976fMJ1fa6lfSXEV7 9EgJYZ3YG6y3HjfRhZR+7riY2mLzP0E5MTzc63O36QV6rZAgCGXPpijGL880v9yVGJQh 6SbcJz71/FcThDzyF4pQeLrOQ3lMxJmTKMrRI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=FniWaJW6wkHgjFbu7sPqSUM6kxmUrk3v0Kxy0dZzLwBCcDRObuFlBBYu1g8wTulnz1 1JiGBqHKuwYG7RcqcXBXg+wguFWKnudYPxOOLCsJfsp+JVVUug0OlEMKAvycr9ORAf5t dZkDsyL6YNcnekX71zqLxidhnzpdfjI5Yg674= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.0.154 with SMTP id 26mr6664341ebb.82.1259084226295; Tue, 24 Nov 2009 09:37:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200911221105.31626.phma@phma.optus.nu> <36F41326-A754-44CD-BAB7-D998075C54CE@choi.name> <12d58c160911221005xc2e53d3q24f9d0d09ba2024@mail.gmail.com> <7D2D5FD9-4849-45F3-8540-EC57C0B9C026@choi.name> <5715b9300911221432y2f9724a4nb2d5156cfc2050ac@mail.gmail.com> <249d5b950911221839p792181a5rf7a3ad83a7836cfb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 12:37:06 -0500 Message-ID: <249d5b950911240937od3a95e8p86eefec8e933abe9@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: sel- vs se From: Steven Lytle To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cdf9b100cf62e04792164b4 X-archive-position: 2576 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --000e0cdf9b100cf62e04792164b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you know "klama", then you already know "te klama", so the only challeng= e is to be able to recognize it as "terkla". My position is that if you don't know all the places, then you don't really know the whole word. stevo On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Joshua Choi wrote: > Yes, that's it. The reason why I'm asking is that I'm learning Lojban > vocabulary using flash cards, and I'm deciding on how to deal with gismu > sumti. > > I thought of three ways. A card could look like this: > FRONT: > klama > a: goer > e: destination > i: [...] > o: route > u: vehicle > BACK: > origin of going > > Or this: > FRONT: > te klama > BACK: > origin of going > > Or this: > FRONT: > terkla > BACK: > origin of going > > I decided to eliminate the first one because it has more clutter than is > necessary to answer the question and recall the answer. So I was choosing > between the second and third one. The third one has an added consequence = of > often quizzing a gismu's rafsi too, which may be positive or negative, > depending on if I want to memorize rafsi separately or simultaneously. > > So the tipping point for me would be which=97"terkla" or "te klama"=97is = used > more, or if there is a difference between the two phrases' usages. I stil= l > don't know which I'm going to use. > > mu'omi'e symuyn > > > On 22 November 2009, at 7:39 PM, Steven Lytle wrote: > > The question wasn't about lujvo vs. tanru. >> It was about the difference between SE GISMU and lujvo based on SE GISMU >> (SELGIhU?). I think they're identical in meaning, and I prefer SE GISMU >> because they're just GISMU with places. >> I suppose it's possible to have a lujvo that looks like SELGIhU but isn'= t >> by leaving out parts of the underlying tanru, but I would consider that = very >> bad form. >> It's also possible that the SELGIhU, being a lujvo, has a specific meani= ng >> not identical to the SE GISMU it seems to be based on, but again, I woul= d >> consider that very bad form. >> It's possible that what I consider bad form is irrelevant, too. >> stevo >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> Yes. lujvo have explicit definitions. They have exactly the same >> precision as a gismu does. Tanru, however, are vague and can mean many >> things based on context. >> >> So for instance, {retsku} means "x1 asks/puts question x2 >> (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) of/to x3 via expressive medium x4 about subje= ct >> x5". >> >> While, on the other hand, {preti cusku} is more vague, like "question ty= pe >> of sayer". >> >> Another difference is that sometimes when constructing lujvo, people wil= l >> leave out bits for the sake of brevity. I can't think of any examples o= ff >> the top of my head. Maybe someone else can chime in with a good example >> where the {sel} bit is chopped out to make it shorter. >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Choi wrote: >> Oops, I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant "selbo'e" >> and "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo using "sel", and the >> other being the cmavo followed by the gismu. Is there any difference in >> usage between using the lujvo and using the cmavo+gismu? >> >> >> On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote: >> >> >> On 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> >> On Saturday 21 November 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote: >> Got a couple of usages question on the difference between the se cmavo >> and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi" >> and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta selklani"? One forms >> phrases=97don't know if you'd call them "tanru"=97and the other forms wo= rds >> =97which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified" >> meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Does >> that affect words like selcti? >> >> Generally there's no difference, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If "seltc= i" >> (or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is a >> difference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes something traded", >> i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja lanci" could mean that, and could al= so >> mean "flag that is traded". >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Joshua Choi wrote: >> Thanks for the reply; I see now. So when it comes to the difference >> between pairs like "selbrode" and "selbo'e", there's no difference at al= l, >> right? They're semantically equivalent, and in this case they even have = the >> same amount of syllables. >> >> So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, or do= es >> one not have to care at all about it? >> >> Those two are semantically identical lujvo, differing only in form. The >> canonical form of any lujvo is the one with the lowest score among the >> possible rafsi combinations according to the lujvo scoring algorithm (CL= L >> 4:12). >> >> mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > --000e0cdf9b100cf62e04792164b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you know "klama", then you already know "te klama&qu= ot;, so the only challenge is to be able to recognize it as "terkla&qu= ot;.
My position is that if you don't know all the places, then you don= 't really know the whole word.
=A0
stevo

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name= > wrote:
Yes, that's it. The reason w= hy I'm asking is that I'm learning Lojban vocabulary using flash ca= rds, and I'm deciding on how to deal with gismu sumti.

I thought of three ways. A card could look like this:
=A0FRONT:
= =A0klama
=A0a: goer
=A0e: destination
=A0i: [...]
=A0o: route=A0u: vehicle
=A0BACK:
=A0origin of going

Or this:
=A0FRO= NT:
=A0te klama
=A0BACK:
=A0origin of going

Or this:
=A0FRONT:
=A0terkla=A0BACK:
=A0origin of going

I decided to eliminate the first one= because it has more clutter than is necessary to answer the question and r= ecall the answer. So I was choosing between the second and third one. The t= hird one has an added consequence of often quizzing a gismu's rafsi too= , which may be positive or negative, depending on if I want to memorize raf= si separately or simultaneously.

So the tipping point for me would be which=97"terkla" or &quo= t;te klama"=97is used more, or if there is a difference between the tw= o phrases' usages. I still don't know which I'm going to use.
mu'omi'e symuyn=20


On 22 November 2009, at 7:39 PM, Steven Lytle wro= te:

The question wasn't about lu= jvo vs. tanru.
It was about the difference between SE GISMU and lujvo ba= sed on SE GISMU (SELGIhU?). I think they're identical in meaning, and I= prefer SE GISMU because they're just GISMU with places.
I suppose it's possible to have a lujvo that looks like SELGIhU but isn= 't by leaving out parts of the underlying tanru, but I would consider t= hat very bad form.
It's also possible that the SELGIhU, being a lujv= o, has a specific meaning not identical to the SE GISMU it seems to be base= d on, but again, I would consider that very bad form.
It's possible that what I consider bad form is irrelevant, too.
stev= o

On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 5:32 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wro= te:
Yes. =A0lujvo have explicit definitions. =A0They have exactly the same prec= ision as a gismu does. =A0Tanru, however, are vague and can mean many thing= s based on context.

So for instance, {retsku} means "x1 asks/pu= ts question x2 (sedu'u/text/lu'e concept) of/to x3 via expressive m= edium x4 about subject x5".

While, on the other hand, {preti cusku} is more vague, like "quest= ion type of sayer".

Another difference is that sometimes when c= onstructing lujvo, people will leave out bits for the sake of brevity. =A0I= can't think of any examples off the top of my head. =A0Maybe someone e= lse can chime in with a good example where the {sel} bit is chopped out to = make it shorter.


On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote:
Oops= , I didn't mean the difference between two lujvo. I meant "selbo&#= 39;e" and "se brode", one being the lowest-scoring lujvo usi= ng "sel", and the other being the cmavo followed by the gismu. Is= there any difference in usage between using the lujvo and using the cmavo+= gismu?


On 22 November 2009, at 11:05 AM, komfo,amonan wrote:


On= 22 November 2009, at 9:05 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Saturday 21 No= vember 2009 14:44:45 Joshua Choi wrote:
Got a couple of usages question = on the difference between the se cmavo
and the sel rafsi. Is there any difference between "ti se citka mi&quo= t;
and "ti selcti mi"? Or "ta se klani" and "ta= selklani"? One forms
phrases=97don't know if you'd call th= em "tanru"=97and the other forms words
=97which probably count as lujvo. And don't lujvo have "specified&= quot;
meanings that are more specific than their corresponding tanru? Do= es
that affect words like selcti?

Generally there's no differ= ence, as "se citka" is not a tanru. If "seltci"
(or "selbo'e") is used in a lujvo, though, then there is adifference. "selcajlanci" means "flag that symbolizes somet= hing traded",
i.e. "trademark", whereas "se canja la= nci" could mean that, and could also
mean "flag that is traded".


On Sun, Nov 22, 2009 at 11= :16 AM, Joshua Choi <joshua@choi.name> wrote:
Thanks for the reply; I see now. So w= hen it comes to the difference between pairs like "selbrode" and = "selbo'e", there's no difference at all, right? They'= re semantically equivalent, and in this case they even have the same amount= of syllables.

So which one do people tend to use? Is there a rule of pragmatics, or d= oes one not have to care at all about it?

Those two are semantically= identical lujvo, differing only in form. The canonical form of any lujvo i= s the one with the lowest score among the possible rafsi combinations accor= ding to the lujvo scoring algorithm (CLL 4:12).

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan






=




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