From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Dec 21 06:34:15 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMjKx-0002q2-9p for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:34:15 -0800 Received: from n7c.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com ([76.13.13.84]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NMjKZ-0002h9-FY for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:33:56 -0800 Received: from [76.13.13.25] by n7.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 Received: from [68.142.230.28] by t4.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 Received: from [66.196.97.144] by t1.bullet.re2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp202.mail.re3.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Dec 2009 14:33:45 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-5 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 116616.75937.bm@omp202.mail.re3.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 22637 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Dec 2009 14:33:44 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rogers.com; s=s1024; t=1261406024; bh=91jFyPfBJ68T08iWfPu0ycdR22Cwx1uEMJaR4XkukNk=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=PwhDMV65x2GC1mQkAphsllLBTe+nf/u3NgUW7XQXwW/6bi+ZQ7GHilMqEFwIRClJR2xJSNhMSZmfxmJUYYg4h2XRvPOnuQ+5eYTJj961dAqJXL1D+aYe+fWIraXydNShM+pDXiUI1aBju3e2/OSz1Vg13h63ARJaKjfcvuUlV1Q= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=rogers.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=P47j0DUbHBp6zsOL6vp3TKiq3eA4wiQb9CJMyGAXiQ/foTcfLVBqwu6tYmCZKoiRsYvEWvWMAETLMtofQ10Xe8MWVX/XHilhxDlQPcHU7VqIzQBcIoI9hiyPpOF2JvZ90aF6wJ6drS+FQtTMsp5Q05OMDaRClWhrCmLi849OojU=; Message-ID: <908284.20249.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: QqHa1ekVM1mzptciZpBLymzHT52qcV8Wm1mIXYLqF2nVfN0CAFRzCxGa5uDj0y.GsXZLO2M3WpTxLGAlGPsG5H9Ugl_EhnmAmL8JBqfBj3BE0TfM8mW1lV4PinO8PEouf588jMNFwGFCXv1Iuxn9ctzBCb0l_nfadMh_cjz4xT8yUWU1aiZ4VlCbgbzwfI3Mr6hZfxPKoZZxbDvEcLI772DMs9VuEP9CFIp2mDc0r.wppiAxWVydBicuys6R5InC0cA69gzJ1ZT9AQN0POxTA3azj2sc_7Oi.0.XMHgvqZfHSf28p3dpzIJaMf6m9GbJwoFiEUcOtkRkU9sSGu.7cnSMy.r1as0pV6KM7Ur3fZwXcmVuScGJYd9pSxtZVx7HN7jAt.Uu4JfzpDDDtRe.XJEgu8EJU3nlZOhLNKfZfvEqpZtlPqz7L9Le.FU_.gYQoArAOOF321bRd0HCKynWOCz20uUWnWQIv7KDdc30BL0CaJz9zCoKKPhplEQfU8isEZiART3K0XpGHA-- Received: from [99.229.170.85] by web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:33:44 PST References: <230918.3024.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <33073.79.75.29.254.1261327629.squirrel@mailgate.denbridgemarine.com> <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 06:33:44 -0800 (PST) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <27513e550912201755p5b49a95dg224f022e030644ed@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2686 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: totus@rogers.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners I really support your initiative.  I started off about 3 years ago as a Category 2 by your definition.  My background is marketing communications; I've never programmed a line of code in my life. Currently, I'm reading the texts, creating sets of all gismu for Quizlet (they are not all online yet), and contributing to jbovlaste. I have to say that I have been motivated by the language itself and by a few helpful individuals who have shown extraordinary patience with the slowness of my progress.. I have also been demotivated by (1) A lack of interest among many in the lojban establishment to attract non-technical newbies like me. I believe this is the main reason why the lojban community remains so small after so many years and probably is still below 'critical mass'. (2) The continued propagation of the myth that the BPFK is finalizing cmavo definitions and some points of grammar.  This is preventing, among other things, the production of the revised CLL and the 'complete' dictionary. Fresh blood is needed, and it needs to come from many walks of life.  A website targetting beginners would be a great first step - and I would love to help. By the way, Jim Dabell started something like this a year ago.  You may want to contact him  directly. See http://www.mail-archive.com/lojban-beginners@lojban.org/msg03798.html totus ----- Original Message ---- > From: Oren > To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org > Sent: Sun, December 20, 2009 8:55:49 PM > Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: vlatai and logflash > > I'd like to help build a site for beginners! One that would > (1) Have a flexible lojban-lesson framework > (2) Have a learner's forum so that beginners know they're not alone > (3) Provide a "gateway" to introduce the wiki, ways to help, how to > use applications etc. > > ...the way I see it, there's two users and so (at least the appearance > of) two sites would make things more orderly. > > Category 1: Experienced people. They're likely not fluent in lojban, > but they're literate. They may be amateur or professional linguists, > programmers or just self-motivated, and so they treat lojban very > differently; more like a programming language; i.e. a tool or > resource. So it's completely natural that there be an online place to > post builds, projects, ideas and esoteric debates for lojban. > > Category 2: New people. They hear about lojban and see lojban.org and > think "Hey, maybe I'll try to learn this." And then they go view one > of the several endorsed learning materials. But they treat lojban like > a human language, and there's nowhere to ask questions on the site, > and no user forum (so no way of knowing that others are studying too). > So when they come back to visit and try to find more materials, they > see a bunch of seemingly non-functional 'works in progress' mixed in > with vocabulary lists-- and they don't come back a third time. > > My impression is that nearly all lojbanists on the mailing lists or > active on one of the websites (jbotcan, lojban.org, jbovlaste) are > self-motivated and geeky, (that is, of category 1), and that with > growing interest worldwide in information technology, multilingualism > or globalization or whatever, the category 2 user is going to come > more and more often, and they're the people who really need a > "website," not a development wiki. And lots of category 2 users don't > use mailing lists, irc, or google wave. > > My impression of how lojban is used online: > > lojban.org -> LLG's official web presence, for everyone* > jbovlaste -> active vocabulary development, for category 1 lojban-geeks > jbotcan, -> active discussion, for category 1 lojban-geeks > irc, mailing lists, google wave -> active communication, mostly > category 1 lojban-geeks* > > *growing category 2 lojban-beginner population > > What I think is missing: > beginner website -> Beginner's resources, discussion, intro to lojban > development > > Or am I way off? I hope that makes sense... >