From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jan 28 18:07:12 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NagGO-0004Tz-20 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:07:12 -0800 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NagGF-0004PE-EH for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:07:08 -0800 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so15682fga.10 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:07:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=QMQGtx3T1VZrkMOyX9nhw5f7Dy2bcvMy4yBlD78xuTU=; b=sbnmODVf6hdnsIh0mlCLPxIl5hARvyoNxC3hsQhiP3THbcDcw18Q6EvUydxCyd53fK n2Fks0uxM3FfXkZltzUyIJoAqg28K+ss50xOaMr8jqyYXl19Wb6pd/l8WuAipos8akdJ ER9FPlQwLPOIQ1K78wt8kXkdA1MN4bHV2NOBE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=AxksigHA17NtM9BmcqFR4OuxnlD4lOmjj57ZlsquBULENlh5XI35RZo3KOY4/FwDOa hscXZwpsTdZ+AeAODd57aJgYn4BQhB9i6j0Y/qZH6+e8NugZkSO1oVa0qkWHnmPt72p1 uErRoAKOkEjCnWLifVwcl4s20Rj4+hJjMAwPc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.239.189.76 with SMTP id s12mr14707hbh.111.1264730821687; Thu, 28 Jan 2010 18:07:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17561001280503u5fcaeca8ue13039a5f6ae5b2b@mail.gmail.com> References: <7177e42e1001271849o782ec540td05bdd005d247b09@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561001280503u5fcaeca8ue13039a5f6ae5b2b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010 21:07:01 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ceec65dcd9529d68 Message-ID: <12d58c161001281807p7132ea49r8258d1dbf920bcd1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: "Why should I believe that?" From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64c2d365cfa06047e44173c X-archive-position: 2759 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: komfoamonan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0016e64c2d365cfa06047e44173c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/1/28 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:49 PM, DataPacRat wrote= : > > >The most > > relevant lujvo or gismu I can find dealing with belief is krici, which > > is belief /without/ evidence or proof, the exact opposite of the sort > > of belief I want to deal with. > > No, "krici" is not necessarily belief without evidence. The > "[regardless of evidence/proof]" comment in the definition only says > that evidence/proof is not part of the "krici" concept, "krici" just > relates the believer and their belief, without saying anything about > how the believer came to that belief, what led them to that belief. > > The comment is something of a "don't think of a pink elephant" > distractor. Instead of distancing "krici" from the concept of > evidence, it leads people to think that "krici" is for beliefs without > evidence. > > But it is of course perfectly legitimate to ask for reasons (krinu) > for believeing (krici) something. > There is a discrepancy between the definitions of {krici} in jbovlaste & th= e gismu wordlist. In the latter, it specifically states "without evidence/proof". Here's the link < http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu.txt >. Does anyone know whether that is out of date and/or whether jbovlaste is, when in doubt, the higher authority? ki'e mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan --0016e64c2d365cfa06047e44173c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/1/28 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:49 PM, DataPacRat <datapacrat@gmail.com> wrote:

>The most
> relevant lujvo or gismu I can find dealing with belief is krici, which=
> is belief /without/ evidence or proof, the exact opposite of the sort<= br> > of belief I want to deal with.

No, "krici" is not necessarily belief without evidence. The=
"[regardless of evidence/proof]" comment in the definition only s= ays
that evidence/proof is not part of the "krici" concept, "kri= ci" just
relates the believer and their belief, without saying anything about
how the believer came to that belief, what led them to that belief.

The comment is something of a "don't think of a pink elephant"= ;
distractor. Instead of distancing "krici" from the concept of
evidence, it leads people to think that "krici" is for beliefs wi= thout
evidence.

But it is of course perfectly legitimate to ask for reasons (krinu)
for believeing (krici) something.

There is a discr= epancy between the definitions of {krici} in jbovlaste & the gismu word= list. In the latter, it specifically states "without evidence/proof&qu= ot;. Here's the link < http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/gismu.tx= t >. Does anyone know whether that is out of date and/or whether jbo= vlaste is, when in doubt, the higher authority?

ki'e mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
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