From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Feb 13 07:20:31 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NgJnK-00055c-II for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:20:31 -0800 Received: from mail-bw0-f211.google.com ([209.85.218.211]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NgJmo-0004kp-4s for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:20:03 -0800 Received: by bwz3 with SMTP id 3so2808227bwz.33 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:19:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=07KLcXSzDZaTrROAcaWc85DWUimUfZy0s4VshsW5rqQ=; b=RCAhjCtXogcQsI80MMQ1qfWApOkyyAp2+S+kaj2J5DZo7TtgEtTTyR2rDsoTOX0p5C AiBWF6ORKvoNOaZQRbc5nLD2WNKG2yikVQ5n9gxUUX+jevr8/x+iCqhhj/5S7nt6dT/w 1qvU8rBx0Nzov8v/g9b9xqlg5Q0OrlDQo/0Zs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hk41dU4fL9JO1Zp/7+T1dtfmotD/H4AE1e8wnfgalIXnslzQBbS6o8bn8Niyv/+6Wz S5Lt/u6k1rWxYAw9Ku3mWfoy+dE73GuKXzly7yd2S6FIWFSM5gTnMFK3/XHIm+vvZ86K tnMKPQjQRKfkqFTFsGXRTO5EBO4SF33tjXGLU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.6.203 with SMTP id a11mr1827978bka.33.1266074390825; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:19:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <239148.11993.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <218950.62113.qm@web46104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <425e4ac21002081956jb0e0de5n98a1a5446c4f7609@mail.gmail.com> <201002090214.40868.phma@phma.optus.nu> <702226df1002090821m1703c5a8l569467a229bb024@mail.gmail.com> <4B768767.1030503@perpetuum-immobile.de> <239148.11993.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 12:19:50 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561002130719v15abf785sb4b1ca7e30e6fdaf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Help! The Xorlo are attacking! From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2832 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Sat, Feb 13, 2010 at 11:53 AM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > No wonder everyone is confused!  Exactly where are cmene and cmevla > definitively defined? Are you asking about the meanings of the Lojban words, or the meanings of the English words borrowed from Lojban? The definitions in jbovlaste seem right for the Lojban words: cmene: x1 (quoted word(s)) is a/the name/title/tag of x2 to/used-by namer/name-user x3 (person). cmevla: x1 is a morphologically defined name word meaning x2 in language x3. The meaning of the English words, which were borrowed from Lojban, we would have to find in a (very complete) English dictionary. The Lojban word "cmene" has always meant just "name" in Lojban, it was never restricted to just those Lojban words ending in a consonant. The English word "cmene" on the other hand, borrowed from Lojban, was originally used to mean "Lojban name word" (i.e. those Lojban words ending in a consonant). At some point, after CLL and LfB were written, we decided that using "cmene" in English with this specialized meaning was a bad idea, because "cmene" doesn't mean and never meant that in Lojban. So at that point English borrowed a new word from Lojban, "cmevla", to refer to those Lojban words that end in a consonant. "cmene" is now used in English to mean "(any) Lojban name", which is still more restricted than its meaning in Lojban. When using words borrowed from Lojban in English, the meaning of the Lojban word is not always preserved. For example "gadri" in Lojban means "article", but when used in English it is usually restricted to "Lojban article". mu'o mi'e xoxes