From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Feb 19 16:40:12 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NidOF-0007Ju-Lm for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:40:12 -0800 Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.78.145]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NidO2-0007A1-47 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:40:04 -0800 Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 3so52103eyh.36 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:39:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=F3RpotMW85bvmZe7E5mue3cevVFpnJ5RWUHUGyY1wCM=; b=m2ExJTjCPDI1ddwTSzfp8iU0NwxandtGAU0Sr7UFo0rTNATEUQEevFomtcBcNsaUP7 8rbEcidVxX4jGm4fRDgneyiWHqG8ki6OfRJpVpy6mQo1SKbhL10pylqqLL3KpeXX73OB B7qFNORK+rzqHq8uGcexEHeDktRxx3cvFMSlo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tyxED7VyouwBSPTbFMH2JBHBa8YWodRubWeEG5tjWeBBoTACOA4IdgdlRzrs72nXvN kYQ2Kp/+FMvLzOyFaQZ3wCWn7QNOcYHSTinB9ZrjtB97SSABgNgTJsASKTspSV3o7GrO hhP6RGdM9GkaX5e97peDUqp6h3vQDx/p4vqIs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.98.143 with SMTP id q15mr1766959ebn.67.1266626396060; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:39:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1f1080831002181825s174b3e2dicc8251571742e6dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f1080831002181721w425a462dpd6cdae84a97b4d0f@mail.gmail.com> <20100219014246.GY19917@digitalkingdom.org> <1f1080831002181825s174b3e2dicc8251571742e6dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:39:56 -0500 Message-ID: <1f1080831002191639m14515b3fibe33935505caade@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Not needing terminators From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2856 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: blindbravado@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners To verify that I actually do get this, here's another sentence I wrote today: mi nupre lonu lonu do spuda lo preti befi mi kei na'e ba nandu do kei do The intention is "I promise you the question(s) I ask will not be difficult for you to answer". (This is intentionally somewhat clunky so I could make sure I knew what I was doing). I'm pretty sure it actually does it right this time. This seems to also be what jbofi'e says: [1(2[nupre1 (promise-r(s)) :] mi I, me)2 [is, does] «3nupre promis-ing»3 (4[nupre2 (promised thing(s)) :] lo any/some <5nu event(s) of [6(7[nandu1 (difficulty thing(s)) :] lo any/some <8nu event(s) of [9(10[spuda1 (answer-er(s)) :] do you)10 [is, does] «11spuda answer-ing»11 (12[spuda2 (stimulus(es)) :] lo any/some {13preti question(s) be (14[preti3 (questioner(s)) :] fi mi I, me)14}13)12]9 kei >8)7 [is, does] «15na'e not ba will be nandu being difficulty»15 (16[nandu2 (thing(s) hav-ing difficulty) :] do you)16]6 kei >5)4 (17[nupre3 (thing(s) receiving promise) :] do you)17]1 Am I reading it correctly this time? mu'omi'e latros. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 9:25 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > > I see now, thank you. Written that way I can read jbofi'e's output much more easily than in the format I saw it before. {se nandu} really does turn out rather cumbersome when you have to write it out like that, doesn't it? > > Also, {lojbo tavla}, that's a nice way to do that. > > mu'omi'e latros. > > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >> >> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 08:21:23PM -0500, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >    I'm trying to work out when you need and don't need terminators. For >> >    example, here's a sentence I wrote today: >> > >> >    xu do se nandu lonu do tavla mi fo la lojban. lonu do tatpi >> > >> >    In idiomatic English, what I'm intending here is: "Do you find it >> >    difficult to talk with me in Lojban when you are tired?" >> > >> >    I put this sentence into jbofi'e and it appears to have parsed it the way >> >    I intended. >> >> Then you're reading jbofi'e's output incorrectly.  le'o ru'e ("no >> offense"). >> >> (0[xu {do <(1se nandu)1 (1lo [nu {do }] [lo {nu }])2>}])1>}])0 >> >> See the (1...)1 section?  That's grabbing the entire sentence after >> "se nandu".  This means that everyhting to the right of "se nandu" >> is ending up in the second place of "se nandu".  Not what you wante. >> >> In particular, note that (2...)2, which is the stuff that fills the >> places of tavla, includes the second "lo nu". >> >> > However, when writing it, I was not sure if I needed to have a >> > {kei} after {la lojban.}. I know {cu} makes it so you don't need >> > terminators in situations like these, but what exactly makes it so >> > that {lonu do tatpi} does not run into the {tavla} clause here? >> >> A terminator on the first "lo nu" clause. >> >> The way that xorxes and I handle this in long-form writing is to >> move "lo nu" clauses in front of the selbri.  I also find "se nandu" >> cumbersome in this case, so I'd just do: >> >> xu lo nu lojbo tavla cu nandu do lo nu do tatpi >> >> If you wanted to keep your original structure: >> >> xu do lo nu do tavla mi fo la lojban. cu se nandu lo nu do tatpi >> >> > Also, just subjectively, is it somewhat..."polite" to include a >> > {kei} here even though it's not grammatically needed? >> >> The only time I included un-needed terminators is when *I* am >> confused.  :) >> >> -Robin >> >> -- >> They say:  "The first AIs will be built by the military as weapons." >> And I'm  thinking:  "Does it even occur to you to try for something >> other  than  the default  outcome?"  See http://shrunklink.com/cdiz >> http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ >> >> >> >