From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Feb 27 20:30:31 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NlanX-0006qZ-5E for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:31 -0800 Received: from mail-bw0-f219.google.com ([209.85.218.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NlanO-0006ls-B8 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:30 -0800 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so1020756bwz.26 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OFFf70RPvQ23qiJH4Xs4PXCaZCce5SMVmt1OhnTdoIg=; b=Hvs1NTzFHcGut/LTM27W+hh9kTkG8l4LQ3OM8NsgxMXV1gR7dgUm/YmQ3XELP3ZckP 7K254lcUVw2eXed+NZYUZgbw0f0x74XcdPjBxzhEY3VpxqT/ZcO+9Gq8j/JQtezUw3fB hTZnvmLjWqZkGa2cuw48MirKJXAvTvX1F5t74= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Yb17FkUgMwdEsIXBXodUawrJ1Lnq2TH098oY/7wJlgxKtAu4Jeznw4cVmvNsK0wefr Xjf1/mIZ/v3t46WY8K0Rd7RslIkYtl01IT/FcIsY4i+lj0ryjX0llxIgVB6RAYDveekY jw0Q+TpjTKxQreWkeDi0qrhEM1yjvN2a0KAoE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.141.9 with SMTP id k9mr1832399bku.73.1267331415018; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 20:30:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5715b9301002271924s287eaaa1xa42d34d3997bd82e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f1080831002250758rb17bd2dk664e035452c298e4@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301002251328o11d2223r12bf275e35e71955@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251336o12bddef4re5cec4b5ac32893f@mail.gmail.com> <20100225215933.GA14097@sdf.lonestar.org> <925d17561002251427h15040eb6p7256255a4d770b3c@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41002251734h18fc88e0ue9d3aec6734b0538@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251804t3bfb7247u95f265f213a09215@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41002251830u1165ddd1ve7992c512894603@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251844g4bdc9f18kdfc75121dcff527d@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301002271924s287eaaa1xa42d34d3997bd82e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 01:30:14 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561002272030k3ae82265l279601d87d4a767c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Tenses in abstractions From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2922 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Ok, so, what you're describing, xorxes, is something different from the CLL > I think.  I thought I always understood VA/ZI as sumtcita but I guess not. >  The CLL version I understand to mean that {mi citka lo plise za lo nu mi > sipna} means "I eat the apple a medium time distance from the event of me > sleeping".  Could you explain what {mi citka lo plise za lo nu mi sipna} > means under your understanding of VA/ZI sumtcita, xorxes? "I eat the apple an event of me sleeping ago", or "I eat the apple an event of me sleeping from now". You wouldn't normally use a ZI without a PU though, because the difference between "ago" and "hence" is pretty drastic. The case of VA is a bit different because in space the direction sometimes can be irrelevant. > Thanks. > P.S.  It's a little disconcerting that I've been learning lojban for over a > year now and have been using VA/ZI sumtcita like the CLL describes them > without ever hearing of another way to use them. Do you use them or see them used like that very often? In the CLL sense they don't seem to have a lot of use (as sumtcita). As I said, the only one I really see used as sumtcita in the CLL sense is "vi", but even then mostly with the sense of "bu'u". Even the example that started this: > would {zi ma do co'a sipna ca lo prulamcte } also be valid? doesn't really make that much sense, since you were asking about the time of falling asleep, not about some short time before or after it. > When are we going to get > an updated version of the CLL with all the errata/xorlo/dotside/anything > else that's come out of BPFK? Everything the BPFK has produced is already available online: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Sections > Or at the very least an "official" page of > some sort with all of the official changes that have been made from the CLL? No official changes have been made from the CLL, but there is a CLL errata page: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+Errata >  Or even less, can we get a page with all the changes that "usage has > decided" are part of lojban? You can always start one, but how do we determine what usage has decided? mu'o mi'e xorxes