From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Feb 27 21:59:37 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:59:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NlcBl-0001x5-0p for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:59:37 -0800 Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com ([209.85.212.53]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NlcBf-0001wT-Qu for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:59:36 -0800 Received: by vws17 with SMTP id 17so498339vws.40 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:59:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=eI4EY8oa+EFR7i+jcA1tzhx51CnuXHgLR2OTJoH/18Y=; b=Mt+918N/GKbfz5o6Tcd2I7+5bd/LySDwQZHtLV/GaxYtmuGqsndKyihB3Zq4soPlw6 rAV/jVcBDlwswK/zzdr2DMvkjFsca0OhoVE+OJIXHQsJvFkqjTgZA84+RqBCYU5yoYzi U3Kh6Zf4Dfn3pK4DM+U3RQg9R/KBYff13rcFI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=EAiawDCRuakP/n76bwl5T0rqictZ6vAt7LK7UonfTg9Ayc7r/IpJUVXpdIUQER+V8X djj4yWa16M38GVGq4mE1spKl9ibXnQIadvRhOpNQLs6J7IUCoR6bbwJLUCF2lPEQBuyO i1tthH/9SiEy1kfZ2ngt/TYBTIarVNuwcbGeE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.122.205 with SMTP id m13mr1922385vcr.151.1267336765069; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 21:59:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <925d17561002272030k3ae82265l279601d87d4a767c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1f1080831002250758rb17bd2dk664e035452c298e4@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251336o12bddef4re5cec4b5ac32893f@mail.gmail.com> <20100225215933.GA14097@sdf.lonestar.org> <925d17561002251427h15040eb6p7256255a4d770b3c@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41002251734h18fc88e0ue9d3aec6734b0538@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251804t3bfb7247u95f265f213a09215@mail.gmail.com> <1a3d02c41002251830u1165ddd1ve7992c512894603@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002251844g4bdc9f18kdfc75121dcff527d@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301002271924s287eaaa1xa42d34d3997bd82e@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561002272030k3ae82265l279601d87d4a767c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 00:59:25 -0500 Message-ID: <5715b9301002272159l2c8755cewd373446c78a71ebc@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Tenses in abstractions From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68f9f78b15c6c0480a2d5bb X-archive-position: 2923 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0016e68f9f78b15c6c0480a2d5bb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >You wouldn't normally use a ZI without a PU though Yeah, I was trying to keep PU out of it since I believe you said that that DOES behave like it describes in the CLL. I'm still confused by what "I ea= t the apple an event of me sleeping ago" means. It doesn't read like any english I've ever seen. How do the event of my eating the apple and the event of me sleeping relate in time and space according to how I used {za} (from your perspective). Sorry for harping on this, I just want to really understand it. Is all of this described in the tag proposal or is this different way of using VI/ZA part of some other proposal? Or is it just how people have bee= n using it? 2010/2/27 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Ok, so, what you're describing, xorxes, is something different from the > CLL > > I think. I thought I always understood VA/ZI as sumtcita but I guess > not. > > The CLL version I understand to mean that {mi citka lo plise za lo nu = mi > > sipna} means "I eat the apple a medium time distance from the event of = me > > sleeping". Could you explain what {mi citka lo plise za lo nu mi sipna= } > > means under your understanding of VA/ZI sumtcita, xorxes? > > "I eat the apple an event of me sleeping ago", or "I eat the apple an > event of me sleeping from now". You wouldn't normally use a ZI without > a PU though, because the difference between "ago" and "hence" is > pretty drastic. The case of VA is a bit different because in space the > direction sometimes can be irrelevant. > > > Thanks. > > P.S. It's a little disconcerting that I've been learning lojban for ov= er > a > > year now and have been using VA/ZI sumtcita like the CLL describes them > > without ever hearing of another way to use them. > > Do you use them or see them used like that very often? In the CLL > sense they don't seem to have a lot of use (as sumtcita). As I said, > the only one I really see used as sumtcita in the CLL sense is "vi", > but even then mostly with the sense of "bu'u". Even the example that > started this: > > > would {zi ma do co'a sipna ca lo prulamcte } also be valid? > > doesn't really make that much sense, since you were asking about the > time of falling asleep, not about some short time before or after it. > > > When are we going to get > > an updated version of the CLL with all the errata/xorlo/dotside/anythin= g > > else that's come out of BPFK? > > Everything the BPFK has produced is already available online: > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Sections > > > Or at the very least an "official" page of > > some sort with all of the official changes that have been made from the > CLL? > > No official changes have been made from the CLL, but there is a CLL errat= a > page: > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+Errata > > > Or even less, can we get a page with all the changes that "usage has > > decided" are part of lojban? > > You can always start one, but how do we determine what usage has decided? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > --0016e68f9f78b15c6c0480a2d5bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >You wouldn't normally use a ZI without=A0a PU though

=
Yeah, I was trying to keep PU out of it since I believe you said that = that DOES behave like it describes in the CLL. =A0I'm still confused by= what "I eat the apple an event of me sleeping ago" means. =A0It = doesn't read like any english I've ever seen. =A0How do the event o= f my eating the apple and the event of me sleeping relate in time and space= according to how I used {za} (from your perspective).

Sorry for harping on this, I just want to really unders= tand it.

Is all of this described in the tag propo= sal or is this different way of using VI/ZA part of some other proposal? = =A0Or is it just how people have been using it?

2010/2/27 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, so, what you're describing, xorxes, is something different fro= m the CLL
> I think. =A0I thought I always understood VA/ZI as sumtcita but I gues= s not.
> =A0The CLL version I understand to mean that {mi citka lo plise za lo = nu mi
> sipna} means "I eat the apple a medium time distance from the eve= nt of me
> sleeping". =A0Could you explain what {mi citka lo plise za lo nu = mi sipna}
> means under your understanding of VA/ZI sumtcita, xorxes?

"I eat the apple an event of me sleeping ago", or =A0"= I eat the apple an
event of me sleeping from now". You wouldn't normally use a ZI wit= hout
a PU though, because the difference between "ago" and "hence= " is
pretty drastic. The case of VA is a bit different because in space the
direction sometimes can be irrelevant.

> Thanks.
> P.S. =A0It's a little disconcerting that I've been learning lo= jban for over a
> year now and have been using VA/ZI sumtcita like the CLL describes the= m
> without ever hearing of another way to use them.

Do you use them or see them used like that very often? In the CLL
sense they don't seem to have a lot of use (as sumtcita). As I said, the only one I really see used as sumtcita in the CLL sense is "vi&quo= t;,
but even then mostly with the sense of "bu'u". Even the examp= le that
started this:

> would {zi ma do co'a sipna ca lo prulamcte } also be valid?

doesn't really make that much sense, since you were asking about = the
time of falling asleep, not about some short time before or after it.

>=A0When are we going to get
> an updated version of the CLL with all the=A0errata/xorlo/dotside/anyt= hing
> else that's come out of BPFK?

Everything the BPFK has produced is already available online:

http= ://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Sections

> Or at the very least an "official" page of
> some sort with all of the official changes that have been made from th= e CLL?

No official changes have been made from the CLL, but there is a CLL e= rrata page:

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+Err= ata

> =A0Or even less, can we get a page with all the changes that "usa= ge has
> decided" are part of lojban?

You can always start one, but how do we determine what usage has deci= ded?

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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