From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Mar 23 05:46:08 2010 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nu3Um-0008RE-5H for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:46:08 -0700 Received: from mail-fx0-f217.google.com ([209.85.220.217]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nu3Ud-0008Pr-8Q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:46:04 -0700 Received: by fxm9 with SMTP id 9so6035886fxm.4 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:45:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cViXiBQW+UeYfi3Uj4E7laVoMyyhEkdQN0d+DpGJzIo=; b=dhq/PSwfKxLGtcYhVDMt9nMyRyVqalWm+AFNrz7K8QERuBoaoBf1WnbQ3Cd5bNYaQ5 YPalJ5MqEiQ6ObmekeKcfLWZeG/5rAuzaUkCHm1cVYyPexVKfJoIhEDL7kAE2fJitnok 1jAS7IjeI9hqtH60kqhfBZhS2iEQbxm6wx86I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kRbGgaKGyhroyDhatDsQKmW3mJkOPKCAlmAJzCX+MZZ4g5dnyxmy4OUkoKwQ+EL6hR 6+VSpIrwmXJlz9y5zAiG/7HLafxBjP58nhXaLGig7dwMAs+qAXl/DZ0BgsSAptcJ9dTi 0CkDuSEn1LMEhsP4WGjW168evFJJ96wAvzyEg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.36.71 with SMTP id s7mr3839635bkd.171.1269348352053; Tue, 23 Mar 2010 05:45:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <16d9defd1003211607v44b3b829xb62d34a3b76b5308@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9301003210025q7f680f5eo50b3e7d76c38f116@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003210712r4b4a02f7l1531cf6997f361c7@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9301003211010h21ddaf0ch95f5f80ae56de924@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003211043w34812aa9p8f5b0b323657e06@mail.gmail.com> <925d17561003211046s6e0035ddj9a6144fa453de11@mail.gmail.com> <16d9defd1003211607v44b3b829xb62d34a3b76b5308@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 09:45:51 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17561003230545s3d54d111nc43bfa64a8c16144@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: .imu'ibo From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 3058 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 8:07 PM, chris kerr wrote: > Why was this xoxes?  If "pu" had equaled "fi'o purci" it seems like > everything would have been more intuitive.  Personally I find it odd > that the sumti that "pu" eats (when it's not in front of a selbri), is > what's in the future. I think it's actually quite intuitive that "pu ko'a" has the meaning of "purci ko'a", i.e. "broda pu ko'a" = "lo nu broda cu purci ko'a". For me it's "mu'i ko'a" not being "mukti ko'a" that is less intuitive. As for the reasons why PU and BAI ended up different, the way it was explained to me is basically that they started from different places. PU was originally just a selbri tcita, and its extension as a sumti tcita came later. BAI started as sumti tcita, and it was later extended to selbri tcita. Also, BAIs were associated with a gismu so that they could be converted with SE to get each of the arguments, and for that to work properly the argument that it tagged had to be the x1 of the associated gismu rather than the x2. PU (and other "tenses") are not strictly associated with a gismu and cannot be converted with SE. In fact, not every "tense" has an obvious gismu to go with it, and while FAhAs do generally follow the pattern of PU ("ne'i" = "fi'o se nenri", "zu'a" = "fi'o se zunle", etc.) sometimes they don't ("fa'a" = "fi'o farna", "zo'i" = "fi'o ?????"). mu'o mi'e xorxes