From yuvalh@hotpop.com Sat Aug 02 06:18:40 2003 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from twix.hotpop.com ([204.57.55.70]) by digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19iwHQ-0000EX-00 for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Sat, 02 Aug 2003 06:18:40 -0700 Received: from hotpop.com (kubrick.hotpop.com [204.57.55.16]) by twix.hotpop.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 96AA95413DE for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:18:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from yuval (bzq-218-168-40.red.bezeqint.net [81.218.168.40]) by smtp-3.hotpop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B995413D4 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2003 13:18:04 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:17:48 +0200 To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: What does la'e mean? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed References: <20030728021451.63993.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> From: Yuval Harel MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20030728021451.63993.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> User-Agent: Opera7.10/Win32 M2 build 2840 X-archive-position: 418 X-Approved-By: jkominek@miranda.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: yuvalh@hotpop.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:14:51 -0700 (PDT), Jorge "Llambías wrote: > > la iuvál cusku di'e > >> 1) Operating on a name, la'e transforms it into the/a referent of that >> name, e.g. {mi tcidu la'e zoi gy. The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul >> .gy.}. > > It would be more proper to say {mi tcidu la'o gy. The Long Dark Tea-Time > of the soul gy}. > Yet The Reference Grammar gives: " mi viska la'e zoi kuot. A Tale of Two Cities .kuot I see that-represented- by the-text `` A Tale of Two Cities ''. I see the book ``A Tale of Two Cities'' " in chapter 20. >> This usage maintains {da cmene la'e da} for all {da}. > > {la'e lu le gerku li'u} is the referent of "le gerku", > i.e. the dog, it is not something named "the dog". > Yet The Reference Grammar gives: " 10.3) mi viska la'e lu le xunre cmaxirma li'u I see the-referent-of [quote] the red small-horse [unquote] " and says this means seeing something named "The Red Pony" rather than something described as a red pony. [...] >> 2) Operating on an utterance, la'e transforms it into the/a meaning of >> that utterance. From what Iv'e seen, it appears that la'e in la'edi'u is >> always understood to have that meaning. For example {mi tcidu lo cukta >> .i la'edi'u xamgu} is understood to mean that my reading of the book is >> good, not that something named "I read a book" is good, as expected by >> interpretation no. 1. This usage maintains {la'e da smuni da} for all >> {da}. > > That is the idea. Otherwise, how would we say the "that" of {la'e di'u}? > How about {lesu'u go'i}? [...] mu'o mi'e iuvál.