From mugglesnsquibs@msn.com Mon Dec 20 17:03:32 2004 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bay3-f5.bay3.hotmail.com ([65.54.169.5] helo=hotmail.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CgYR2-0003UI-JT for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:03:32 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:03:00 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 65.123.241.82 by by3fd.bay3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Dec 2004 01:02:18 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.123.241.82] X-Originating-Email: [mugglesnsquibs@msn.com] X-Sender: mugglesnsquibs@msn.com In-Reply-To: <537d06d004121801115994c775@mail.gmail.com> From: "Robert Griffin" To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: grasping lojban Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 17:02:18 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Dec 2004 01:03:00.0644 (UTC) FILETIME=[D107BE40:01C4E6F8] X-archive-position: 960 X-Approved-By: mugglesnsquibs@msn.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: mugglesnsquibs@msn.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners lu mi klama zdani li'u probably means something like 'I am a going-type-of-house'. Perhaps for RVs and campers. Possibly also for travelers' hostels. I go to a home-- .i mi klama lo zdani mi zdani klama --I'm homeward bound? Do we have a way of distinguishing sets of mountains ('mountains I have climbed', 'mountains which are popular with tourists'...) from mountain ranges (the Alps, the Himalayas...)? Do we have a word for 'desert'? for forest/woodland? for swamp or marsh? for valley? >From: Philip Newton >Reply-To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org >To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org >Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: grasping lojban >Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2004 10:11:04 +0100 > >On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 11:40:02 -0600, Bob A wrote: > > coi; Im new to lojban, so I have some questions. > > > > I heard that lojban can use SOV order without any particles, so how can > > you interpret "mi klama zdani" as "I go to a home" and not "I am a home > > of something that goes"? > >You cannot. However, {mi do tavla} would mean "I talk to you" and you >do not need other particles. > >The difference being the word class: {do} is a cmavo while {klama} is >a brivla. Since putting two brivla together results in a tanru, you >need an explicit {cu} if the second brivla is the predicate. (Also, >you'd need an article: {mi le klama cu zdani} would be something like >"I am a home for something that goes" while *{mi klama cu zdani} would >be ungrammatical since {mi klama} is "I go" and then you get a {cu} >which introduces a predicate into a statement that already has one.) > >Also, SOV is not really a good term for Lojban, since "subject" and >"object" are not necessarily descriptions for brivla which can have >more than two arguments. > > > How do you form adjectives? > >brivla can be nouns, adjectives, adverbs, or verbs depending on how >they are used: > >{mi viska le blanu} = I see the blue thing (blanu = noun) >{mi viska le blanu dinju} = I see the blue building (blanu = adjective) >{mi blanu viska} = I bluely see (blanu = adverb) >{mi blanu} = I am blue (blanu = verb) > >Note that "=" is used here not as "is" but more in the sense of "acts >in this sentence in a manner which would be filled by a >[noun/adjective/adverb/verb] in a corresponding English sentence". > > > How do you include the objects of nouns? > >I'm not sure what you mean here. What's the object of a noun? > > > How can you tell when a compound phrase arnt just two words in different > > positions? > >The simple answer is that if two words next to each other could be >considered together, they are; if you want the other interpretation, >you have to split them up, typically by inserting a suitable >terminator to the first portion. > >For example, if you want to say *{mi le dinju viska} for "I see the >building", you could introduce the predicate by {cu} as {mi le dinju >cu viska} or terminate the sumti {le dinju} with the elidable >terminator {ku} -- with {le dinju ku}, the sentence becomes {mi le >dinju ku viska}, which is also correct. (The fullest form would be {mi >le dinju ku cu viska vau}.) > > > How do you form adverbs? > >Generally, brivla can work as adverbs if they modify a following >brivla which acts as a verb. > > > How do you specify the degree of a word? > >What do you mean by this? > > > How do you talk about things like ownership and belongingship? > >The things that come to my mind include the gismu {ponse} and the >cmavo {pe} and {po}. > >For example, {mi ponse lo cukta} is "I have books"; {le cukta pe mi} >is "the book associated with me (e.g. the one next to me)" while {le >cukta po mi} is (roughly) "the book possessed by me". > > > Which mailinglist is good for newbies to practise lojban? > >This one is probably the best there is, though it's not very high-traffic >IME. > >mu'o mi'e .filip. >-- >Philip Newton > > mu'o mi'e .bobgrif.