From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Mar 10 08:47:29 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1D9Qor-0005pP-UL for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:47:29 -0800 Received: from web41901.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.152]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1D9Qoh-0005ov-7x for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:47:29 -0800 Received: (qmail 65245 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Mar 2005 16:46:48 -0000 Message-ID: <20050310164648.65243.qmail@web41901.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41901.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:46:48 PST Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 08:46:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jorge "Llambías" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: personal pronouns To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: --- Matt Arnold wrote: > Also, I am aware that the use of gendered pronouns to speak of that which > would otherwise be referred to as "it" is an idiom from natural languages, > but when translating poetry that attempts to personalize and anthropomorphize > the earth and sun, is there a way to preserve this feeling without committing > malglico? {ninmu}, "woman", is dispreferred in metaphor as sexist. Can I say > {fetsi}, "female"? [...] Content analysis details: (-2.5 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.1 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list X-archive-position: 1213 X-Approved-By: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners --- Matt Arnold wrote: > Also, I am aware that the use of gendered pronouns to speak of that which > would otherwise be referred to as "it" is an idiom from natural languages, > but when translating poetry that attempts to personalize and anthropomorphize > the earth and sun, is there a way to preserve this feeling without committing > malglico? {ninmu}, "woman", is dispreferred in metaphor as sexist. Can I say > {fetsi}, "female"? You already anthropomorphize when you say {le terdi cu sipna}. There is no way to suggest a gender or personhood through the use of third person pronouns because Lojban's third person pronouns never contain that information. One way to personalize through pronouns could be to address the earth directly: {do melbi doi terdi}, but no gender is implied there. I'm not sure why using {ninmu} in a metaphor would be sexist in itself. I suppose it would depend on the metaphor. mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/