From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Jun 10 08:11:54 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DglAo-0002va-6L for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:11:54 -0700 Received: from bay23-dav8.bay23.hotmail.com ([64.4.22.188] helo=hotmail.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DglAm-0002vS-EY for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:11:53 -0700 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 08:11:51 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.218.132.157 by BAY23-DAV8.phx.gbl with DAV; Fri, 10 Jun 2005 15:11:51 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [65.218.132.157] X-Originating-Email: [betsemes@hotmail.com] X-Sender: betsemes@hotmail.com From: "Betsemes" To: References: <925d1756050608135842062873@mail.gmail.com> <20050608210056.GE15659@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560506081422399a5088@mail.gmail.com> <20050608220428.GF15659@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d1756050609072757542a3c@mail.gmail.com> <925d175605060911227d7c6445@mail.gmail.com> <925d175605060914082a76fce1@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zvati Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 10:57:05 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2005 15:11:51.0351 (UTC) FILETIME=[BABC2470:01C56DCE] X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-archive-position: 1509 X-Approved-By: betsemes@hotmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: betsemes@hotmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners > Yes, but {mi nau zvati lo nu pu salci ca le prulamna'a} can also > mean that I'm now at the place where a party was celebrated > last year. {bu'u ko'a} indicates the location of ko'a, but ko'a has > to be there at the time in question. It's not any location where > ko'a was at any time. > > So while I understand a sentence such as "I > > drink only water at the party" as referring to the same moment and time of > > the party, I cannot connect a location tense word (like bu'u) with the > > concept of an event which is located both in space and time. > > Every physical object is located both in space and time, not just > events. The peculiarity of events is that they tend to have a single > space-time location and then disappear, whereas other > objects tend to have extended trajectories in space-time, > but there are exceptions in both camps. > I need to insist on this because I have seen a disagreement between two "experts". If I haven't seen a disagreement, then I'd accept that bu'u could refer to objects/events' locations both in space and time; but since there is a disagreement, then I have to press the issue a bit longer. It seems that the confusing term here is "coincident with". It's definition is: bu'u: location tense relation/direction; coincident with/at the same place as; space equivalent of ca According to Jorge, in order for two objects, or an object and an event to coincide in the same place, they should coincide in time too. Apparently, Robin doesn't think so (and personally, I don't think so as well). I understand the possibility of two objects coinciding at the same place, but at different times. Since bu'u is a location tense cmavo, then time is unimportant as bu'u is concerned. In order to add the idea of coinciding in time too, then additional information is needed. That's my idea. If an agreement is reached in the sense of bu'u meaning "coincident with ?? in both space and time" then I'll accept it. In the mean time, I'll consider bu'u a pure location tense cmavo.