From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Jun 17 06:47:52 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DjHCK-0006iT-0i for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:47:52 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DjHCH-0006iL-2D for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:47:51 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so342412wra for ; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=V1JD3ZDbbLmhiYQrk5hFje5X8FSa4UJvk6alh6c12s3Pc6C5zcjCzAUQI0wyT40iparF+vBCgtYBlVNAHlgJjJ9FIvXT/m8hxO3kZngOdNPaS2p23t0zw/ag49pzQaFitkiHZUHqXvS07KI5ynGRsCt6Epval8idukMWcsbYk+M= Received: by 10.54.112.2 with SMTP id k2mr1260706wrc; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.67.20 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jun 2005 06:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d175605061706476611dc8b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:47:47 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: So Long, and Thanks For All the Fish In-Reply-To: <42B28236.9070809@msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <42B28236.9070809@msn.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 1519 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 6/17/05, Ben Cook wrote: > rotaerk_ spontaneously came up with a translation of the title of the > Douglas Adams novel listed in the subject, and it was thus: > > co'o .i ckire fi ro le finpe > > From my readings of xorlo, it seems as though we'd want to use lo > instead of le here, but rotaerk_ believes that would translate to "all > fish on earth", rather than "all the fish". Ouch! Why? That would be {lo ro finpe pe la terdi} or something like that. There is nothing in {lo} or in {finpe} that brings in the earth. {ro lo finpe} is "each thing that is a fish", and what counts as a fish can vary from context to context. If I recall correctly, the Earth has already been destroyed to build the freeway by then, so there would be no fish left on earth to thank for, but then in that story there certainly are fish (in people's ears for example) that are not on earth. I suspect there's some > English quasi-idiomatic use going on here, but I'm at a loss. I've no > idea how to properly translate that concept. The title implies not that > "all the fish on earth" are being thanked-for, but rather that "all the > fish that have been given" are being thanked for. I don't see a problem with using {le} there, but I would say {le ro finpe} rather than {ro le finpe}. With the latter it would mean "thanks for each of the fish", which although not wrong it is somewhat overdoing it. I would say the fish in question are all being thanked for together, and not each of them individually. > The alternate translation I devised was: > > co'o .i ckire fi lo nu dunda lo finpe > > I feel mine is more semantically accurate, yet that translation loses > the sense of "all". Finally, I came up with this kluge to convey the > sense of "all". > > co'o .i ckire fi lo nu dunda da'a no finpe How would {da'a no} differ from {ro}? I would say they are equivalent. > As we increase semantic accuracy, we lose the brevity of the English, > like usual. I would say {mi do ckire le ro finpe}, but if you don't like objects in the x3 of ckire, you can say {tu'a le ro finpe} for an implicit event involving the fish. mu'o mi'e xorxes