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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:06:48 -0500
From: Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: zgana, viska, catlu
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On 8/19/05, Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/19/05, Chris Capel <pdf23ds@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And I tend to wonder why
> > the "by standard" place is necessary in so many words, when a single
> > cmavo could replace all of them and more. (Is there even a cmavo for
> > "by standard"?)
> 
> {ma'i}

Yay! "By reference frame"? No wonder I didn't find it. I guess that
means more or less the same thing.

> > Oh, and the "observer" place alternates often between
> > the first, second, and third places, sometimes without any apparent
> > reason.
> 
> Yes. I find "by standard" and "under condition" places the
> worst, and "observer" places about there.

Oh, yes. I forgot to mention "under condition". I knew there was one I
was missing.

So with va'o (under conditions), ma'i, and ga'o (to observer), I don't
ever have to use any of those places! Though realistically, I *will*
use the observer places in several of the gismu, as they tend to be
central to the meaning of the gismu, and thus worth the bother of
remembering. But the observer place in things like {cizra} and {kucli}
are perhaps less essential than in words like {zgana} and {simlu}.
(It's hard to search the gismu list since the "observer" is rarely
explicit.)

> My expectation is that these places will simply drop
> out of use, so that with time we will have a more
> consistent set.

I'll do my part!

Chris Capel
-- 
"What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it
like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?"
-- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)