From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Sep 16 18:20:44 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EGRNk-0004ri-B0 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:20:44 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.200]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EGRNj-0004rZ-2a for lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:20:44 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id n29so84951nzf for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:20:37 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=EPURhjca0yDEr4/jZt7eN2CS/X9RRjk+iiFzwkvXelBDnIMGMOlYGXApmLd6h/zwzuOZTVLFj6kN3NNS9qVGtIYUuU1vYc1fNq4DdlVAqaXfzUJgQxMsPsNrXJ2lzGiOfIM7hcuOq2PeTv/DuoGD2XVAAnQ2tsu5MGSd/0bU2PE= Received: by 10.54.124.8 with SMTP id w8mr138184wrc; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.118.16 with HTTP; Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5ccdc753050916182015a6b16d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:20:37 -0400 From: "la cuncuxnas." To: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Newbie Intro In-Reply-To: <200509151840.00078.scottr@synthiotics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5266_2726145.1126920037720" References: <200509151840.00078.scottr@synthiotics.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 2106 X-Approved-By: thatskotkid@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-original-sender: thatskotkid@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_5266_2726145.1126920037720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I, too, noticed that about the online lessons. It's something I've been=20 grappling with lately, actually. Having run through the beginner lessons an= d=20 leafed through the CLL, I feel I have a pretty decent grasp on the grammar.= =20 I'm not quite able to wrap my intended message up into an elegant little=20 Lojban ball yet, but I can make most of the sentences I want and understand= =20 most of those that come to me from others. The only problem with all that i= s=20 that I have to look up nearly every word I use, be it in my own sentences o= r=20 in reading others'. I've resorted to bulling through LogFlash in lieu of=20 anything more practical. Very strange that there isn't ANY vocab-intensive= =20 beginners' material out there. mu'omi'e cuncuxnas. > I think mainly conversational beginner lessons would be great. >=20 > I've noticed that the online Lojban beginners lessons tends to focus on= =20 > the > structure of sentences more than content. The content is there, of course= , > but more for illustrative purposes than anything else. >=20 > Back in my high-school and college days I took 4 1/2 years of German and = 3 > years of French, but never used either, really, and forgot most of what I > learned back then over the intervening decades. About a year ago I picked= =20 > up > a first year German book, just to brush up on it, and noticed that it was > more about content than structure. The chapters are heavy in building up > vocabulary and giving the student the ability to converse in simple=20 > sentences > about everyday things. Delving into the finer points of correct grammar= =20 > and > whatnot comes later, after the students can already talk (in "baby=20 > German") > about Otto, his sister, his father, his mother, their pets, the trip he= =20 > took > to the store, what he bought, what kind of classes his sister is taking i= n > school, etc., etc., etc. Lots and lots of short, single subject, sentence= s > about really common things that everyone knows about. >=20 > The Lojban lessons I've been going through since I started with it (just = a > couple of weeks ago) are extremely light on vocabulary in comparison to= =20 > the > German book, but get into very detailed descriptions of rather complex > grammatical constructions almost right from the beginning. Without the > accompanying vocabulary, it can be a bit hard to practice what one is > learning about the grammar. I'm not saying the vocabulary isn't there in= =20 > the > Lojban lessons, but in comparison to the German book there is a really > significant difference. Certainly some of this is because at a simple=20 > level > German and English are structured very similarly, whereas Lojban is quite > different. Nevertheless, gaining the ability early on to talk about=20 > everyday > things without involving untangling three layers of inserted bridi I thin= k=20 > is > important to keeping up students interest. >=20 > So I (as a rank beginner, of course) vote that a podcast really focus on > building basic conversational skills first, and grammar skills only > secondarily. >=20 > Just my thoughts. >=20 > mu'o mi'e la skat. >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------=_Part_5266_2726145.1126920037720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I, too, noticed that about the online lessons.  It's something I've been grappling with lately, actually.  Having run through the beginner lessons and leafed through the CLL, I feel I have a pretty decent grasp on the grammar.  I'm not quite able to wrap my intended message up into an elegant little Lojban ball yet, but I can make most of the sentences I want and understand most of those that come to me from others.  The only problem with all that is that I have to look up nearly every word I use, be it in my own sentences or in reading others'.  I've resorted to bulling through LogFlash in lieu of anything more practical.  Very strange that there isn't ANY vocab-intensive beginners' material out there.

mu'omi'e cuncuxnas.


I think = mainly conversational beginner lessons would be great.

I've noticed = that the online Lojban beginners lessons tends to focus on the
structure of sentences more than content.  The content is the= re, of course,
but more for illustrative purposes than anything else.
Back in my high-school and college days I took 4 1/2 years of German a= nd 3
years of French, but never used either, really, and forgot most of what Ilearned back then over the intervening decades.  About a year a= go I picked up
a first year German book, just to brush up on it, and not= iced that it was
more about content than structure.  The chapters are heavy in= building up
vocabulary and giving the student the ability to converse i= n simple sentences
about everyday things.  Delving into the fi= ner points of correct grammar and
whatnot comes later, after the students can already talk (in "baby= German")
about Otto, his sister, his father, his mother, their pet= s, the trip he took
to the store, what he bought, what kind of classes h= is sister is taking in
school, etc., etc., etc.  Lots and lots of short, single subj= ect, sentences
about really common things that everyone knows about.
=
The Lojban lessons I've been going through since I started with it (jus= t a
couple of weeks ago) are extremely light on vocabulary in comparison to the=
German book, but get into very detailed descriptions of rather complex<= br>grammatical constructions almost right from the beginning.  Wi= thout the
accompanying vocabulary, it can be a bit hard to practice what one islearning about the grammar.  I'm not saying the vocabulary isn'= t there in the
Lojban lessons, but in comparison to the German book ther= e is a really
significant difference.  Certainly some of this is because at= a simple level
German and English are structured very similarly, wherea= s Lojban is quite
different.  Nevertheless, gaining the abilit= y early on to talk about everyday
things without involving untangling three layers of inserted bridi I th= ink is
important to keeping up students interest.

So I (as a rank= beginner, of course) vote that a podcast really focus on
building basic= conversational skills first, and grammar skills only
secondarily.

Just my thoughts.

mu'o mi'e la skat.

=


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