From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Nov 01 01:09:40 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EWs9D-0003fG-Mt for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:09:39 -0800 Received: from xproxy.gmail.com ([66.249.82.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EWs9B-0003f9-TA for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:09:39 -0800 Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id h29so1328499wxd for ; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:09:36 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=bkVtyn6i/ZOJU93EoV59sW/+KZ5nbXto9oWPw5Wb9/zANeF3TPRGSwgRozRjaQ0+LtEz5ors1x4ONABnDI35COINTUOhT9hU/N5C0rluPU7ndH8DVpTp4W1Y4uI09Y2f1i5z1VCC983qYfu/KYZSiBmDUTBqzJ/okp2/Vmen6nE= Received: by 10.65.22.10 with SMTP id z10mr931197qbi; Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:09:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.204.15 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2005 01:09:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <26506d300511010109h106bca31q@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:09:36 +0100 From: Thomas White To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Difficulties and frustrations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-archive-position: 2434 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: winterwhite9257@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners hello all, I've been looking over the baselined gismu list, typing them into (at last!) my Mac flashcard program (iFlash from Loopware if interested... quite good I hafta say - it handles multi-sided flashcards, say one for the gismu, one for its (choose your language)-equivalent, and one for the gismu's rafsi), and have come to realise that not all the gismu set have their own rafsi... I suppose it isn't statistically possible, but it's still frustrating if one is to try to combine two gismu into a lujvo that have no rafsi. Does this mean that certain combinations are 'doomed' to their long-winded tanru only? I've also noticed that spoken lojban doesn't quite have a semantic rhythm that makes any sense (granted, this is coming from a glinanmu)... Take the sentence: .i mi do rinsa mu'i le nu do co'a tcidu le mi samclupa sezyskinoi (sound-byte heard from Nick Nicholas's webpage) I you welcome because the-event you [initiative] read my computer-type-of-loop-type-of-homepage Using square brackets and re-typing it to break it into his spoken rhythm, it comes out like this: [.imido rinsa]*pause*[mu'ilenudoco'atcidu]*pause*[lemisamclupa]*pause*[sezyskinoi] Yes, lojban is 'audiovisually isomorphic', but I had to write it down, break it up, and re-read it to separate it into understandable concepts. One that particularly loses me is [mu'ilenudoco'atcidu]. There are many distinctive and important parts to that, which IMHO should not be said in one breath. mu'i, for instance... because. I know, I know, it's not a 'word' per se, but it's a semantically important bit. Certainly do co'a should be separate - the speaker appreciates _the initiative_ taken by the reader. lenu is fine, the-event-of. I think what bugs me is that 'do' is getting lost in the flurry of sounds... the listener might not even know the phrase is about them! This email is probably rife with malglico assumptions etc. especially since I'm not fully conditioned to the lojban way of thinking/understanding... but has anyone come across something similar? How many lojbanists have actually 'conversed', either face-to-face or over the phone/skype? What seems more 'natural' to the speakers? I'm still in love with this language, don't get me wrong, but as with any beginning steps, there's always the frustration of wanting to run before we can walk the talk. Feedback and fellow stories greatly appreciated. Kindest regards, mu'omi'e tomys.