From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Nov 02 05:41:32 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EXIrs-00044P-5q for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:41:32 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EXIrm-00044A-QQ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:41:31 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 57so71596wri for ; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:41:25 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=o+mG12vpRD2fbQKXcz+4rdNYWFteqssZI5O9F+AQGbGbFMEsj8ZwvLhCZgbNlCv8z9xAqT7g5ZZg5DbJkk0uCrQtuPfnQeRmo0f+dOUKs1LrnunwoT9Kz02uF06BS2JpCUQKzBCemDKSzqSlxSAGsDy6RTZdOZa36oNoOSXUyaE= Received: by 10.54.152.1 with SMTP id z1mr2060265wrd; Wed, 02 Nov 2005 05:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.66.3 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Nov 2005 05:41:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560511020541y81d6350o6fb92bd892a72faa@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:41:25 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Translation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2d3df92a0511010735hf001466x@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 2456 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 11/2/05, Naomi K wrote: > Ok, with your help, I have hopefully improved my statement: > > {lenu ro do cu pu zukte ta se ki'ubo mi djica lenu mi jikselsi'a} > The-event all you acted like 'that' is the reason I want the-event I am > socially-esteemed. > > Hmm...I'm thinking that {ro do} would be more appropriate {ro prenu}, since > he is only addressing the event that his friends did, and not what everyone > did. > > I added {pu} to hopefully stress that this event has passed, and is not > going on right this minute. {pu} does indicate that the event is in the past, but {ta} can only be used to refer to something present. For example, I can say: {mi pu tcidu ta ca le prulamnanca} I did read that-thing-there at the past-adjacent-year but only if the thing I read last year is now present so that I can refer to it with {ta}. I can't use {ta} to refer to something not present. For example, if you are now climbing a wall, I could say: {mi pu zukte ta ca le prulamdei} I did that yesterday where {ta} refers to the event "(someone is) climbing a wall", but only because the event "(someone is) climbing a wall" is present, so I can point to it. Unlike English "that", it is not at all clear that {ta} can be used to refer to something not present but only being talked about. The general understanding has been that {ti}, {ta}, {tu} can only be used to refer to things you can point to in the here-and-now. You can say that these things were in the past in some relationship or other, but they have to be present at the time of the utterance too, just like the referents of {mi} and {do} have to be present. > {se ki'ubo}. Not the first time I've made a mistake between the 'because' > and 'therefore' versions -_-' There are (at least) two ways to use {se ki'u}: one is to connect two bridi, the other is to add a sumti to a bridi. In the first case, you need {i se ki'u bo}: ro do zukte ko'a i se ki'u bo mi go'i All of you did it. Therefore, I did it. Both {i} and {bo} are required there. The other way is to add a sumti: ro do zukte ko'a se ki'u lo nu mi no'a All of you did it therefore I did too. Or: mi zukte ko'a ki'u lo nu ro do no'a I did it because all of you did. Notice that "everyone was doing it" and "I wanted to be popular" are (together) reasons or motivations for why I did it, but "everyone was doing it" is not a reason for "I wanted to be popular" nor the other way around. mu'o mi'e xorxes