From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Nov 03 04:15:21 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 03 Nov 2005 09:44:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EXdzw-0006ZM-NQ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:15:18 -0800 Received: from xproxy.gmail.com ([66.249.82.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EXdzo-0006ZC-Qx for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:15:16 -0800 Received: by xproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id s9so518847wxc for ; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:15:07 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=AWdbCrgAsMuSTigPo8Gx5AQlNj59oEekbFGHQFap03dqSvnvAm69ImybY87bc0MQEEjcZQ/13/G7ZNJDW2LqavMIOInsBRo7pgSS/i0HA6JFpXgIE4SnIyLJqqb23wf4v6ail3bBS1yMN1J/pb7V/5cikLIy4wPKZD84cNTl2Ww= Received: by 10.64.242.2 with SMTP id p2mr627347qbh; Thu, 03 Nov 2005 04:15:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.204.10 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Nov 2005 04:15:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <26506d300511030415j48a05aefm@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 13:15:06 +0100 From: Thomas White To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] How 'natural' a language? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-archive-position: 2468 X-Approved-By: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: winterwhite9257@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners .i coi ro do Quick warning, the following contains content that may not appeal to all readers. Forgive the nature of this question, but I'm sure I can't be the only one to have thought of it: How 'natural' a language is lojban if there are no swear words or insults? It's kind of a joke, but one usually learns a language's swear words first (especially when one is a young learner - it makes it more interesting to know 'forbidden' things :)) There's also the utility of having lojban-specific, culturally-neutral profanity as a medium of translation. I often find myself in difficulty when it comes to explaining certain insults that exist in French to an anglophone (my Dad, for instance, is always looking for new ways to express his... ahem... frustration to the name-your-technician who's rattling-off a thousand words a minute in a foreign tongue). One example is 'connard' which, depending on context, equates with ass hole, or dickhead, or cunt or, well... you get the idea. The point is that there is, as yet, no _specific_ word in english. Where does lojban come into this? Well, it would be convenient to have a conceptually-specific, yet culturally-neutral set of 'insults', hopefully just as quick to say as other languages (not something like [person-who-is/has/owns/is part of penile genitalia/extensible reproductive organ in the place of/resembling said person's head] ), that could be used in translations of a text, or transcriptions of dialogue, for instance. Another convenience is to be able to 'swear' without others knowing what you've really said. I mean more in the type of situation where, say, you're at your in-laws' place, doing some handiwork, and by accident slam the hammer on your thumb. You wouldn't really want to _swear_ but the ability to 'vent' fully does bring some satisfaction. "Oh fiddle-sticks" doesn't quite do the trick, if you see what I mean ;) {.oi} to me at least, is about as inoffensive (and ineffective) as "phooey" (or, as the example goes, Oy vey.) Feedback welcome. mu'omi'e tomys.