From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Nov 20 10:51:45 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EduHx-0007ye-OK for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:45 -0800 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.54) id 1EduHu-0007yW-Gs for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:45 -0800 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so333846wri for ; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:41 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=SSLeiQRN3QJ7kQXCKdk96h3vb5ayl1+Kashho/T7sbPafrJkaHrr9sD5wEiQZI/xRnWtCfV/j89erdQYjGZgf9YVQQsS3/naJzjoP5DkbvN6Wix5UJoWC2TOH/M6y1y3aXurQ5jhNYK9qj4RvRhk2RmX8K4qN2bbO6lH6ZQ7t1o= Received: by 10.54.143.1 with SMTP id q1mr752084wrd; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.126.5 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560511201051l29a88443o2a4f958d89a83c7@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:51:41 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Up-to-date definition of Lojban In-Reply-To: <20051120000136.GU23316@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <1003614874.20051119120342@mail.ru> <20051119060745.GK23316@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560511190633j100f3c6dhfa8f70c2a540924@mail.gmail.com> <20051119203205.GS23316@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <925d17560511191259k90d9ae1j873f05b2bb835284@mail.gmail.com> <20051120000136.GU23316@chain.digitalkingdom.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 2629 X-Approved-By: jjllambias@gmail.com X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Robin, I'd appreciate not being lightly accused of deception. I know you probably don't really mean it, I know you sometimes use much stronger words than what you mean, but still... Anyway, before we let this escalate any further, it might be useful to describe what brought up Yannis's question. It had nothing to do with xorlo. He proposed the following sentence: The rocket is flying upwards. le jakne cu ga'u vofli I commented: "Upwards" would be {ga'u mo'i}. (I now notice that I should have said {mo'i ga'u}, because {mo'i} modifies what follows rather than what preceeds). I didn't check what was official or what wasn't when I made that comment, I just commented based on my working knowledge of the language. I even made a mistake in my correction! He then challenged my comment (which is a very healthy thing to do, there is no reason to accept a correction just because somone who is more experienced with the language has made it) by citing the ma'oste: ga'u FAhA2 above location tense relation/direction; upwards/up from ... I didn't even remember this definition from the ma'oste, I just knew that {ga'u} is meant to be a location, not a direction. So I checked with CLL and confirmed that there the location and direction meanings are clearly separated. I told Yannis that the ma'oste is not always 100% reliable and pointed him to the corresponding chapter in CLL. I didn't say anything about officialness, because I don't really give as much value as others to what's official or what's not, but in this case it just happens that CLL is "more official" than the ma'oste. Now, I aways try to be careful when commenting on someone else's use of the language to separate what is clearly and uncontroversially an error (a missing {cu}, an impermissible consonant cluster, etc) from what is my preferred usage. In the latter case, I normally say things like "that's not necessarily wrong, but I would prefer such and such", or "I would say it like this instead of like that", or "I prefer to use this word in this other way" etc. I never just say that something is wrong when I know there is a controversy. The BPFK stuff is not official yet, maybe some parts of it will never become official. But 95% of it agrees with the official definitions and is often more clear and better defined, so hiding it from "beginners" or making it seem as if it is something very suspect and that you shouldn't look at is not, in my opinion, a good policy. All the definition pages have the heading "Proposed definition" so it is not as if anyone would be misled into thinking it is the last word on anything. In fact we need more people to look at it and comment as much as possible, and we are all beginners in some sense, so being a beginner should not keep anyone interested from looking into it. mu'o mi'e xorxes