From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 14 18:54:08 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.54) id 1EmjFv-0004L8-Ux for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:54:08 -0800 Received: from dionysos.oderland.com ([213.115.211.26]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.54) id 1EmjFr-0004Km-3y for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 14 Dec 2005 18:54:07 -0800 Received: from c-0b92e255.1210-16-64736c14.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se ([85.226.146.11]) by dionysos.oderland.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1EmjFh-0004z7-8t for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Dec 2005 03:53:57 +0100 Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ok, lambda/currying-geeks needed (was Re: Re: "Once More") From: Sunnan To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560512141218q4ac20542ma2b219d953ee80f@mail.gmail.com> References: <12d58c160512120619v1ed1cdcp49af8ae1b4f3f86a@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560512121409o663e2a7ekae04309af89c599a@mail.gmail.com> <762741971.20051213083403@mail.ru> <1134564388.5808.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <925d17560512141053h13e65826t1f4e53636fab6088@mail.gmail.com> <1134588279.5808.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <925d17560512141218q4ac20542ma2b219d953ee80f@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 03:53:44 +0100 Message-Id: <1134615224.5808.83.camel@localhost.localdomain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Antivirus-Scanner: Clean mail though you should still use an Antivirus X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - dionysos.oderland.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lojban.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - handgranat.org X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 2782 X-Approved-By: sunnan@handgranat.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: sunnan@handgranat.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 17:18 -0300, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 12/14/05, Sunnan wrote: > > Maybe these tense-prefixing PA could be constructed from su'i pa with > > the proper currying/lambda-wrapping method? > > Not with the current grammar, which only allows pure numbers in > front of ROI. No operators in any way. Can variables such as 'ti' be used? Are there a default variable (similar to perl's $_) that operators can be provided for? > > I do totally dislike Lojbans attitudinal system[1] so I know that Lojban > > isn't perfect. But it would be a shame if the mekso system was also bad. > > I wouldn't say it's bad per se, it just doesn't seem to belong with > the rest of the language. But I don't want to prejudice you, maybe > you will like it. :) I just might. We'll see. > > > [1]: > > One problem with the attitudinal system is that it's based on opposing > > axes, like love being an opposite of hate. > > Well, that does give you two (or three even) for the price of one. But it might have an unwelcome side-effect in the sapir-whorf part of the brain. Love and hate can coexist (and make you suffer, like in battered-wife-syndrome where you can have problems hating your abuser enough to leave, because hate is supposed to be incompatible with the love you still have). > > Another is that it's constructed from a list of English emotions -- one > > of the first things I wanted to write/say was an attitudinal to replace > > "the tone of voice you have when revealing a great secret", and of > > course, non exists. > > Maybe {bi'u}, {bi'u sai}? Maybe. Combining bi'u with a "secrecy"-attitudinal would cover it. > > I've seen complaints by others that there's also no > > simple attitudinal for non-English concepts like shadenfreude > > {uu nai}, {uu nai ui}? Yes! Or variants like ui.uunairu'e > > or ennui > > {.u'i nai}? I don't like this one so much; the distinction between weariness and ennui is something I'd like to keep. Maybe it can be done with UI4 but that still makes a sapir-whorf-y connection between them (similar to the love/hate problem). > > and I agree with this problem. It's so limited, static, frozen. Here's > > more: > > Nausea, > > {.a'u nai}? Yes, or a'unairo'o > > isolation (scratch this one, I guess o'enai does the job), > > suspicion, > > {ii ru'e}? Maybe iiro'aru'e is better? This one is still a bit iffy. > >jealousy, > > {.i'o nai}? Perfect! > >righteousness, > > {.u'u cu'i}? Maybe. I'm looking for the word for the feeling of "We're doing the Right Thing here!" > > and more? > > {uo nai} :) ui! > > Some of these may exist but it's not an easy system to find my way > > around, it's more like a static list of emotions coupled with negations > > and (somewhat arbitrary) oppositions. > > Have you checked: > ? Some of them seem to collide with what I'm used to from my home languages; like a'a which in sweden is often used for insight. "aha, that's new information to me!" or "aha, what a brilliant idea". But that won't be a problem to the jbojbe. > Anyway, I agree it could have been more systematic, but it's not as > incomplete as it may seem at first. No, apparently not! I'm much happier with this system now. I'd still wish there weren't so much reliance on "nai"; that nai could be a compliment to available opposing words. (Just like xla- in lojban today -- it's used, but most of the time there are different words for different things.) > And most of these words have > seen very little usage, so if some hole is found, it is often possible > to extend the sense of some towards what's wanted. > > > Thirdly, and related to both preceding problems -- it's so distinct from > > regular lojban, it feels like it's painted on or glued on. It's not > > based on gismu or selbri or anything else. > > You can construct an attitudinal from a selbri with sei + selbri. Really? .ibi'usei se mipri noda jetnu Would that really work? > As for their free grammar, I think that's a plus, although they might > have been easier to use if they modified what follows them rather > than what precedes them. I kinda like that part, you can add it to a name to instantly judge that person, like mi pu terxa'a fe la xorxes.i'e