From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 12 07:46:48 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GY1pg-0008ME-FR for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:46:48 -0700 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.14.82] helo=hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GY1pa-0008M2-Tf for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:46:48 -0700 Received: FROM [141.213.221.81] (bursley-221-81.reshall.umich.edu [141.213.221.81]) BY hellskitchen.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 452E5514.A748D.31944 ; 12 Oct 2006 10:45:41 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <537d06d00610120242g714cea4et4d7dbb72a630109@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ea0266d0610120211gd3e5557p8dd2970b19f39571@mail.gmail.com> <537d06d00610120242g714cea4et4d7dbb72a630109@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: problem Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:45:39 -0400 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3616 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners [Lojban spelling in square braces] {English spelling in curly braces} From a "how do I make these sounds?" point of view, [ ' ] is the easier to describe. If you speak any of the dialects of English I know of, just use your normal {h} sound, as in {help} or {has}. Or, if you prefer, you can use {th} as in {pith} since that's one of the alternate pronunciations. The [x] is a little bit tricky, because it's a sound that we don't have in most dialects of English. If you pronounce the words {loch} and {lock} differently, then the sound made by {ch} is probably what you want. Another way to think of it is by analogy. Compare the first sound in {change} and {shame}. Notice how in {change} your tongue traps the air, and then releases it, while in {shame} the tongue just gets close to the roof of your mouth. Try saying {chay} and {shay}. Now say {kay} and {gay} -- your tongue traps the air just like it did in {chay}. What you want is for your tongue to touch the same place as it does in {gay} and {kay}, but to just get close like it does in {shay}. If you aren't getting it maybe compare {shay} with {tay} to feel the stopping versus non-stopping. The problem is that English doesn't really have a good pair like {k} and {x} make in Lojban so I use {chay} as an approximation. But if you break up {ch} very carefully, it's actually {t} followed very closely by {sh}. This is why we write [tc] for {ch} when copying names into Lojban. mu'omi'e .aleks. On Oct 12, 2006, at 5:42 AM, Philip Newton wrote: > On 10/12/06, UrchinStar47 wrote: >> What is the real difference betwean ' and x in Lojban? > > It's like the difference between {c} and {b} -- they're two separate > phonemes. {li'o} "[omitted text]" is something different from {lixo} > "how many?". > > Phone_t_ically, {x} is, AFAIK, [x] (the voiceless velar fricative), > while {'} is some fricative that can't be confused with any other > fricative -- popular choices include [T] (voiceless dental fricative) > and [h] (voiceless glottal fricative). > > My impression is that [h] is the more popular of the two, so in > pronunciation, {'} is to {x} in Lojban as {h} is to {hx} in Esperanto. > (Where the difference is phonemic, too: horo "hour" vs hxoro "choir".) > > mu'o mi'e .filip. > > > > >