From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 12 12:58:55 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GY6hj-0007LQ-2L for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:58:55 -0700 Received: from ug-out-1314.google.com ([66.249.92.168]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GY6hd-0007LJ-62 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:58:54 -0700 Received: by ug-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so354981ugr for ; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BtignzBOLUm6HQQ6hSeBzX0kf8ZzfygZfcdJINYlHRJl/SRaSr06K1MJXCMM1UmdHIHPMbJRyA/58LWe18lCyyobWW2AwfYZ5XLu6WedLUqsAhv8s3Qu6PUxWRVhwuOMCs+VNgW8A3Ow89oAUEsLfEb+gnPCBUGjsGtySCpai08= Received: by 10.78.182.20 with SMTP id e20mr2629107huf; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.78.144.3 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:58:47 -0400 From: "Matt Arnold" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: problem In-Reply-To: <2C91E382-A66F-464D-969E-C8E4365765A2@umich.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9ea0266d0610120211gd3e5557p8dd2970b19f39571@mail.gmail.com> <537d06d00610120242g714cea4et4d7dbb72a630109@mail.gmail.com> <2C91E382-A66F-464D-969E-C8E4365765A2@umich.edu> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 3621 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: matt.mattarn@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners I've played that sound clip a dozen times in a row, on headphones. For the life of me, the left-channel sound which you say is correct sounds like "h". The right channel sound with the trill I recognize as "x". If I'm incorrect on this, then so are the Lojbanists who sent in recordings of themselves to play on the podcast, reading the holoalphabetic sentence. No one is going to confuse that sound for another letter in Lojban, but they will mistake the sound you say is correct, for "h". Every time. If these are alternate pronunciations, we would already have defacto alternate pronunciations of {x}, which we have no choice but to accept. I don't really consider it alternate, for the same reason that I consider plosives in English to be the same sound whether they are pronounced with an actual plosive, or just pronouced as a stop. -epkat On 10/12/06, Alex Martini wrote: > In episode two, I hear you use an unvoiced velar (maybe glottal) > trill when reading the holoalphabetic sentence, and when you say {xu} > in the list of cmavo at the end. > > For comparison purposes, I stuck a short recoding of both on my site. > http://umich.edu/~alexjm/ > > I would suspect that if a Lojban speaker hears the velar fricative, > the uvular fricative, or the velar trill, these are all close enough > to get across the point that {x} was the intended phoneme. How were > the original "allowed alternates" decided, and is it possible to add > to these at some point? > > On Oct 12, 2006, at 2:09 PM, Matt Arnold wrote: > > > On 10/12/06, Gabriel Koulikov wrote: > >> > >> From what I can tell, even Matt Arnold of the wonderful > >> jbocradi podcast mispronounces it in ALL of his podcasts to date. > > > > That's news to me. What do the others think? > > -Matt (epkat) > > >