From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Dec 04 17:55:10 2006 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:55:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GrPWY-00029K-J8 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:55:10 -0800 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.93.161] helo=tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GrPWT-000297-7Q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:55:10 -0800 Received: FROM [141.213.221.81] (bursley-221-81.reshall.umich.edu [141.213.221.81]) BY tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 4574D13B.B1D16.25528 ; 4 Dec 2006 20:54:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <45723719.8070606@phma.optus.nu> References: <4571D160.6030000@mindspring.com> <7C12B446-67E9-460B-8047-B1EC4DAF28B7@gmail.com> <45723719.8070606@phma.optus.nu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <22A57D36-C4B3-437D-949C-E7FF64797A20@umich.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis From: Alex Martini Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Pronouncing "x" Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:54:01 -0500 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 3801 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Dec 2, 2006, at 9:31 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > Evan Wilson wrote: >> Ronald (I hope you don't mind that I address you rather informally), >> I took a different approach on learning how to pronounce the >> Lojban "x". I happen to have studied the Persian (Farsi) >> alphabet, and it has the character "خ" or "khe" which seems to be >> similar if not exact to the Lojban "x". A sound recording of "خ" >> can be found here: http:// easypersian.com/W4/khe_4.mp3 >> (Reminds me a bit of Hebrew) >> Even if you do already have that confidently figured out, perhaps >> it will help in confirmation? This sounds most like X-SAMPA X (IPA χ) to me. > > I knew a Persian named Farrokh, and he ended his name with that sound. > > I pronounce it as either ach-Laut or ich-Laut, depending on nearby > vowels, except in the combination "xr", which I pronounce as a > single sound, a voiceless uvular and alveolar trill (i.e. ach-Laut > and rolled r at the same time). If you heard my turkey > tonguetwister at jbonunsla, you know what that sounds like. But if > the "r" of "xr" is vocalic, it's the voiced double trill. So: > marxa - ach-Laut > darxi - ich-Laut > maxri - double trill > rirxrxrazdani - just keep trying ;) > (This last word means "is the river Hrazdan". You probably don't > need it unless you're going to Armenia ;)) > > As to Hebrew, I pronounce (when I'm careful) chet as ach-Laut and > khaf as ich-Laut. Interesting -- I've started teaching myself the Hebrew alphabet recently and hadn't known that those two letters could make different sounds. But, from what I remember from CLL's pronunciation guide IPA x (ach- Laut) is the only one listed. But I think that many Lojbanists use IPA ç c-with-a-tail (ich-Laut) and IPA χ curly-X as alternates. Perhaps we should officially recognize them someday... χ is X-SAMPA X; ç is X-SAMPA C. I'm assuming you're using ach/ich Laut to mean the sound in each of those German words. > > phma mu'o mi'e .aleks.