From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Mar 01 11:22:53 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HMqrc-00060G-HE for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:22:52 -0800 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HMqrR-0005zx-IV for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 11:22:52 -0800 Received: from 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:22:24 -0500 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg02.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007030114222427819 for ; Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:22:24 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:22:24 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: learning lojban Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 14:22:24 -0500 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7BF7@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <200703011327.59569.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: learning lojban Thread-Index: AcdcMR3lxquc+C5uS7qvegeHPqRh8AABNb/w From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Mar 2007 19:22:24.0533 (UTC) FILETIME=[F10A6C50:01C75C36] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4070 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Well, yes and no. There really aren't nouns and verbs. The same words function as nouns, verbs, adjective and adverbs. For example, in English, "blue" is general considered to be an adjective, and "sky" is generally considered to be a noun. But in the sentence, "The paint store ran out of sky blue", suddenly sky functionas as an adjective and blue the noun. The equivalent in lojban is "lo tsani blanu" and "lo blanu tsani". In tanru sumti, all except the rightmost brivla function as adjectives, and the last as a noun, and in tanru selbri, all but the rightmost brivla function as adverbs, and the rightmost as a verb "lo blanu tsani cu sutra bajra" => "The blue sky runs quickly" "lo tsani blanu cu bajra sutra" => "The sky blue is runningly fast" . The key here is that they FUNCTION as certain parts of speech, but can take on any of those roles, depending on the slot, so the language doesn't have any fixed nouns, verbs, adjecvtive, or adverbs. --gejyspa -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Pierre Abbat Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:28 PM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: learning lojban On Thursday 01 March 2007 11:37, Karl Naylor wrote: > Intuitively, I would like to see this emphasised right at the > beginning of Lojban beginners' courses -- "don't try to look for nouns > and verbs in this language, nor for any other concepts from other > human languages you know. Looking for predicate calculus concepts is > probably OK". There are nouns and verbs in Lojban, and also conjunctions, prepositions, articles, and pronouns. There are other parts of speech that don't exist in English, such as the predicate marker (which exists in Tok Pisin), terminators, and spoken quotation marks. There are no adjectives or adverbs in Lojban, and nouns and verbs are used very differently. German is too close to English (if you're learning German, already knowing English) to compare learning Lojban to a Pimsleur German tape. You might compare it to learning Turkish or Ojibwe. English is a nounish language, while Lojban is a verbish language. (I don't know the proper terms.) Consider "clock". If I use "clock" as a verb, it's not something a clock does; it's something done using a clock. But if I use {junla} as a verb, it is something a clock does: it ticks out time intervals with some precision, using some mechanism (or electronism). And if I use the Navajo word as a verb, it is something a clock does: it moves slowly in a circle. phma