From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Mar 02 06:20:34 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:20:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HN8ca-00028S-OK for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:20:33 -0800 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HN8cU-00028F-0e for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 06:20:32 -0800 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:20:13 -0500 Received: from 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.22]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007030209201324599 for ; Fri, 02 Mar 2007 09:20:13 -0500 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-its-exbh02.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:20:13 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Nouns and verbs (was: learning lojban) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:20:13 -0500 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7BFD@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Nouns and verbs (was: learning lojban) Thread-Index: Acdc00kVjPV/vihoQY2WWKlwE7J/lgAAJHbA From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2007 14:20:13.0662 (UTC) FILETIME=[E49CCFE0:01C75CD5] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4078 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners >Whee, you've turned a "noun" into a "verb". >How is that different from turning a "verb" into a "noun" by adding {le}? Ah, but it isn't. That's one of my points. But to CALL a brivla an inherent "verb" is a mistake, IMHO. All brivla can be "turned into" a particular traditional part of speech by how it's used (which may involve adding cmavo before it). For example, to say "le gerku mlatu", mlatu isn't a verb, but throw in the "cu" before it, and it is. So is "le mlatu" "nouning" the verb or is "cu mlatu" "verbing" the noun??? The fact that "cu" is often elidable doesn't make it any less of a marker of part of speech of the following brivla than "le" or "me" is. >> commons nouns (which are brivla, when used as such). > Combinations of gadri + brivla, I'd say. See above -- "le gerku mlatu" doesn't make gerku into a noun (it makes it na adjective), but rather makes mlatu into one. But one COULD view gadri as articles (indeed, jbovlaste specifically refers to them as such), so are you suggesting that "the automobile" in English is a noun, but "automobile" is not? "le mlatu" is a noun phrase, not a noun. Brivla are not traditional parts of speech, but can function as n,v,adj, or adv. --gejyspa -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Newton, Philip Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 8:59 AM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Nouns and verbs (was: learning lojban) la gejyspa cu cusku di'e > Verbs are action or state-of-being words. And {mlatu} is something like state-of-being-a-cat. > "le mlatu" is the subject of the sentence, *nod* > therefore mlatu is functioning as a noun, not a verb, in that sentence. I'd probably have agreed with you if you'd said that {le mlatu} is functioning as a noun. But not {mlatu} by itself. > And while it is true that you cannot say lai galtu cu .alp. > You CAN say "lai galtu cu me la .alp" Whee, you've turned a "noun" into a "verb". How is that different from turning a "verb" into a "noun" by adding {le}? > commons nouns (which are brivla, when used as such). Combinations of gadri + brivla, I'd say. mu'o mi'e .filip.