From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Apr 16 05:29:16 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HdQKR-0008GB-T6 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:29:13 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HdQKA-0008G2-HL for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:29:04 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:28:25 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007041608282506803 for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:28:25 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:28:25 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C78022.BA897448" Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:28:25 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7C9D@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <830402.24319.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? Thread-Index: Acd/zQ4jYwEAgXqHQVqckxBsosblQQAUizug From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Apr 2007 12:28:25.0266 (UTC) FILETIME=[BAAF9120:01C78022] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4266 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C78022.BA897448 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And the only difference between "Michael" and "Who-is-like-God?" is choice of language. Just because a name chosen to designate something or someone MAY have a meaning in a given language, doesn't mean it necessarily mean that it necessarily does so, nor even is derived from it. Wolf Blitzer is not a wolf nor even wolf-like, Bear Bryant is not a bear, River Phoenix is not a river, and (most analogously to the case at hand) Frank as a name doesn't mean "truthful" despite it being cognate with the English word "frank". It means "French". Similarly, while "kadnygug" could mean Canada the country, you could name your kid or pet that without having any relationship to Canada at all, just because you like the sound. (And Gwyneth Paltrow named her kid Apple because "It sounded so sweet and it conjured such a lovely picture for me - you know, apples are so sweet and they're wholesome and it's biblical - and I just thought it sounded so lovely and...clean! And I just thought, 'Perfect!' ", not because she thought the kid was a piece of fruit). =20 So if I were to go ahead and call my dog Bear, "(la) ber", in lojban, rather than "(la) cribe", I could do that, and it wouldn't mean that his name has any relation to the rafsi "ber" (northerner). =20 But by calling something "(la) kadnygu'e", by contrast, you are quite definitely saying, "I chose to name this after the country of Canada. Why? Well, I may or may not have a good reason. But it's Canada, nonetheless..." So, if she were a lojban speaker, Paltrow would have probably named her kid "plise", while Wolf Blitzer's mom would have probably still named him "uolf", not "labno", since he was named after his grandfather. =20 --gejsypa =20 =20 ________________________________ From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of ANDREW PIEKARSKI Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 8:11 PM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? =20 Sorry, but I don't understand the connection between your last sentence and the sentences before it. The only difference between "la kadnygug" and "la kadnygu'e" is in the choice of rafsi.=20 =20 mu'o mi'e .andrus. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:27:20 PM Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? A little follow up: Your name is "Andrew" That means "man". Mine is Michael, it is from the Hebrew "Mi Cha'El"-- "Who is like God?" But when someone says Michael or Andrew, they aren't thinking about the meanings, because it's just someone's name, and the meanings are derived from non-English, so they don't think about it. But if my name was "Who-is-like-God?" You couldn't help but think about the meaning. So "la kadnygug" is analogous to "Michael" while "la kadnygu'e" is analogous to "Who-is-Like-God?". Okay? =20 --gejyspa =20 =20 ________________________________ From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of ANDREW PIEKARSKI Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 1:19 PM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? =20 Great! Thanks to your collective efforts, I think I now understand why le, lo and la kandygu'e can be ok.........however, what about "la kadnygug. cu lamji la mergug" ? Surely "kadnygug" is not valid. Doesn't CLL state that a CVC rafsi cannot be at the end of a word? =20 - Andrew ----- Original Message ---- From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:33:21 AM Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what? On 4/12/07, ANDREW PIEKARSKI wrote:=20 But in the real world, unless I am writing about alternate universes, I have only one specific Canada in mind - so surely it must be "le kadnygu'e"? Not quite. In the sentence I used before (lo kadnygu'e cu lamji lo mergu'e), the sense of ' Canada ' is quite clear. But imagine someone leaving Canada & returning years later, finding it changed, and saying, "The Canada I remember has ceased to exist." I would go with le there: le kadnygu'e poi mi morji fi ke'a cu pu co'u zasti In the real world, Canada is what it is. But in people's minds, there are different Canadas . You could use 'la' there too.=20 =20 As far as "la kadnygu'e" is concerned, "kadnygu'e" would have to be a name, but section 4.8 of the CLL says "Names may have almost any form, but always end in a consonant". So how can it be acceptable? Take a look at 6:2.6 -2.11. la/lai/la'i can take a selbri as well as a cmene. But a cmene can only take la/lai/la'i, whereas a selbri can take any of the gadri (lo, le, la, loi, &c.). The restriction is one-way. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C78022.BA897448 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

  And the only difference = between “Michael” and “Who-is-like-God?” is choice of language.  Just = because a name chosen to designate something or someone MAY have a meaning in = a given language, doesn’t mean it necessarily mean that it necessarily = does so, nor even is derived from it.  Wolf Blitzer is not a wolf nor even wolf-like, Bear Bryant is not a bear, River Phoenix is not a river, = and (most analogously to the case at hand) Frank as a name doesn’t mean = “truthful” despite it being cognate with the English word = “frank”.  It means “French”.  Similarly, while = “kadnygug” could mean Canada = the country, you could name your kid or pet that without having any = relationship to Canada at all, just because you like the sound.  (And  Gwyneth = Paltrow named her kid Apple because “It sounded so sweet and it conjured = such a lovely picture for me – you know, apples are so sweet and = they're wholesome and it's biblical – and I just thought it sounded so = lovely and...clean! And I just thought, ‘Perfect!’ “, not = because she thought the kid was a piece of = fruit).

      =

  So if I were to go ahead = and call my dog Bear, “(la) ber”, in lojban, rather than = “(la) cribe”, I could do that, and it wouldn’t mean that his name has any = relation to the rafsi “ber” (northerner).

 

  But by calling something = “(la) kadnygu’e”, by contrast, you are quite definitely saying, = “I chose to name this after the country of Canada.  Why?  = Well, I may or may not have  a good reason.  But it’s Canada, nonetheless…”  So, if she were a lojban speaker, = Paltrow would have probably named her kid “plise”, while Wolf = Blitzer’s mom would have probably still named him “uolf”, not = “labno”, since he was named after his grandfather.

 

      =             --gejsypa

 

 

From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org = [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of ANDREW PIEKARSKI
Sent: Sunday, April 15, = 2007 8:11 PM
To: = lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: = [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what?

 

Sorry, but I don't understand the connection between = your last sentence and the sentences before it.  The only difference between “la kadnygug” and “la = kadnygu’e”  is in the choice of rafsi.

 

mu'o mi'e = .andrus.

----- Original = Message ----
From: "Turniansky, Michael" = <MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 2:27:20 PM
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what?

 A little follow up:  = Your name is “Andrew”  That means “man”.  Mine = is Michael, it is from the Hebrew “Mi Cha’El”-- = “Who is like God?” But when someone says Michael or Andrew, they = aren’t thinking about the meanings, because it’s just someone’s = name, and the meanings are derived from non-English, so they don’t think = about it.  But if my name was “Who-is-like-God?”  You couldn’t help but think about the meaning.  So “la kadnygug” is analogous to “Michael” while “la kadnygu’e” is analogous to = “Who-is-Like-God?”.  Okay?

 

      =             &= nbsp;     --gejyspa

 

 

From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org = [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of ANDREW PIEKARSKI
Sent: Thursday, April 12, = 2007 1:19 PM
To: = lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: = [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what?

 

Great!  Thanks to your collective efforts, I = think I now understand why le, lo and la kandygu'e can be ok.........however, = what about  "la kadnygug. cu lamji la mergug" ? Surely "kadnygug" is not valid.  Doesn't CLL state that a = CVC rafsi cannot be at the end of a word?

 

- = Andrew

----- Original Message ----
From: "komfo,amonan" <komfoamonan@gmail.com>
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:33:21 AM
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Now what?

On 4/12/07, ANDREW = PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote: =

=

But in the real world, unless I am writing about alternate = universes, I have only one specific Canada in mind - so surely it must be "le = kadnygu'e"?


Not quite. In the sentence I used before (lo kadnygu'e cu lamji lo = mergu'e), the sense of ' Canada ' is quite clear. But imagine someone leaving Canada & returning = years later, finding it changed, and saying, "The Canada I remember has ceased = to exist." I would go with le = there:

le kadnygu'e poi mi morji fi ke'a cu pu co'u zasti

In the real world, Canada is what it is. But in people's minds, there are different = Canadas . You could use 'la' there too.

=

 

As far as "la kadnygu'e" is concerned, = "kadnygu'e" would have to be a name, but section 4.8 of the CLL says "Names may = have almost any form, but always end in a consonant".  So how = can it be acceptable?


Take a look at 6:2.6 -2.11. la/lai/la'i can take a selbri as well = as a cmene. But a cmene can only take la/lai/la'i, whereas a selbri can take = any of the gadri (lo, le, la, loi, &c.). The restriction is one-way.

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan

 

 

 

 

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