From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Apr 22 15:13:53 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HfkJY-0000WP-DY for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:13:50 -0700 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.227]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1HfkJU-0000WD-05 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:13:48 -0700 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 60so1273798wri for ; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:13:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=kjJ/riKsnrKgi6ewEklowduGjAvnCFRdy9qJ3ysCFEaFZd5nOTIIgsWoGAauGyArM/CCwYc0jKwjGbTaS6TQn1ReBCzPdoPDA1LHXU4nPv506hMVqtuCp00/J/iGz5xQIRvg+azbgkkW+3NRqJUMxDHuYdgUvktebjUQcx4eZPM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=XiIcTHz1chnVMINQ0lFj/9p7PmXWw3eduSJVt3uV5n/IDgXhVtT4LxV50789tra4giOunqgge913g6qK+3HYOfQAseUBnWDagg09cKmVNDoSrNBv0p6k/53HRJlHL2I2aosCEZ+uracUTJ/8ydUAfidbPtaWr9lqosZt9BCPTQY= Received: by 10.114.52.1 with SMTP id z1mr2213441waz.1177280016449; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.109.5 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Apr 2007 15:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <12d58c160704221513l39365a34s33805cad064dd970@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2007 18:13:36 -0400 From: "komfo,amonan" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: New lojbanist asking about "po'e" and "lo" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_98451_1291428.1177280016406" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1b4b3ea980beb932 X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: -20 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4367 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: komfoamonan@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_98451_1291428.1177280016406 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/22/07, Rob Hughes wrote: > > First, I'm puzzled about the relationship between "po'e" and "po". I > understand that "po'e" can be used for unique inalienable possession. > My hands are only mine and can't stop being mine, so I say "lo xance > po'e mi". Is "po'e" used for inalienable possession that isn't > unique? My father can't stop being my father, but he's also my > sister's father. Can I say "lo patfu po'e mi", or should I say "lo > patfu pe me" (or "lo mi patfu")? > The short answer is: { lo patfu be mi }. That pretty much covers most all meanings of "my father". { lo patfu pe mi }/{ lo mi patfu } is common, correct, and less precise. I would say { po'e } is definitely wrong and { po } almost definitely wrong, because they imply ownership, and it's hard to imagine a scenario in which one wishes to assert ownership over one's father. There are perhaps some cultures where some familial relationships have an ownership dynamic. But the place structures of those gismu release us from such thorny issues. Remember that although English bids us say "my book", "my novel", "my liver", "my father", Lojban urges us to make finer distinctions. mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan ------=_Part_98451_1291428.1177280016406 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 4/22/07, Rob Hughes <robert.c.hughes@gmail.com> wrote:
First, I'm puzzled about the relationship between "po'e" and "po".  I
understand that "po'e" can be used for unique inalienable possession.
My hands are only mine and can't stop being mine, so I say "lo xance
po'e mi".  Is "po'e" used for inalienable possession that isn't
unique?  My father can't stop being my father, but he's also my
sister's father.  Can I say "lo patfu po'e mi", or should I say "lo
patfu pe me" (or "lo mi patfu")?

The short answer is: { lo patfu be mi }. That pretty much covers most all meanings of "my father".

{ lo patfu pe mi }/{ lo mi patfu } is common, correct, and less precise.

I would say { po'e } is definitely wrong and { po } almost definitely wrong, because they imply ownership, and it's hard to imagine a scenario in which one wishes to assert ownership over one's father.

There are perhaps some cultures where some familial relationships have an ownership dynamic. But the place structures of those gismu release us from such thorny issues.

Remember that although English bids us say "my book", "my novel", "my liver", "my father", Lojban urges us to make finer distinctions.

mu'o mi'e komfo,amonan
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