From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Apr 23 08:37:01 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hg0b4-0008B2-7n for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:37:00 -0700 Received: from mclmx.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.10]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Hg0av-0008Af-V5 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 08:36:57 -0700 Received: from 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com ([149.8.64.21] [149.8.64.21]) by mclmx.mail.saic.com id BT-MMP-52638 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:36:38 -0400 Received: from 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com ([10.43.229.18]) by 0015-its-ieg01.mail.saic.com (SMSSMTP 4.0.5.66) with SMTP id M2007042311363820431 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:36:38 -0400 Received: from 0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com ([10.75.0.188]) by 0015-ITS-EXBH01.us.saic.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:36:39 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Constructive comments requested. Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 11:36:39 -0400 Message-Id: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7CBD@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <64DBE649-0183-4C11-85B0-BAF7F67E8112@umich.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [lojban-beginners] Re: Constructive comments requested. Thread-Index: AceDl2CEMYuGSzz8S/SStTwZgkAduACJXZGg From: "Turniansky, Michael" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Apr 2007 15:36:39.0631 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F8B25F0:01C785BD] X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Score-Int: -24 X-Spam-Bar: -- X-archive-position: 4374 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: MICHAEL.A.TURNIANSKY@saic.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Don't get me wrong. I agree that Alice is no starter text (my Terry the Tiger is better in that regard, and to a lesser extent, my Berenstain Bears translation). I was comparing Alice to Harry Potter, and Artemis Fowler which Colin thought would be better suited, and I say they have exactly the same problems as Alice, if not moreso. --gy -----Original Message----- From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto:lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org] On Behalf Of Alex Martini Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 5:57 PM To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Constructive comments requested. On Apr 20, 2007, at 2:34 PM, Turniansky, Michael wrote: > Gee, *I* read Alice in Wonderland as a child. It was made for > children. It's full of adventure. It made me wonder what was coming > next. How is not a children's book? (And for the record, is much > shorter then Harry Potter, Artemis, Fowler, etc. that Colin seems to > prefer). > > --gejyspa Well, from my point of view, the Lojban translation is just too darn hard to read. I can't get through the first paragraph without consulting jbovlaste a dozen times, and then dipping back into CLL because I don't understand the cmavo that the translator's using. A children's book (or a beginner's book) needs to have just enough challenge to send me hunting for the dictionary every so often, but the majority of the vocab should be already within reach. This was my frustration that motivated me to start writing the Lojban Reader ( http://umich.edu/~alexjm/reader0.html ) although I haven't had the time/motivation to work on it recently. In my view, Alice in Wonderland in it's Lojban version, is really more like adult books -- once you understand how to read the language well enough do it without thinking much there's a lot of great story to be told. But if you're reading it in jbofi'e line-by-line translation anyhow, you're not really getting much. mu'o mi'e .aleks.