From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue May 29 12:26:40 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 29 May 2007 12:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ht7L5-0002Nx-M9 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:26:40 -0700 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.239]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ht7L1-0002Nn-Vh for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:26:39 -0700 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id t11so1440558wxc for ; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:26:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=FJRAy7T0elD1ZXRgIUZVlk3zD24hZTPtb5hbwF38ij4G0LsztGH9FBPp1llvZKlSkUx5f9vr9Rkh3Xmwhfxi4aatqnEIOZpmnEyHmoXG5YcFisKjjMAW5Zwob4we8T5F/kznGD5FtNePQAC33G0H+1lSbtAGxXDPmZ/6m4abjuI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=F8v9jV6ZZpxoRbuB+nTz+KwUf22MM5jl1zY5bWc7QlCOZ8LERJuizMugJIFAXdnvt6gzv3JXtK/9MhtjxQwC+ELyuL65uiYiR9zRkg1XQofVthQsz6XzzXcgwLI7U8Wb0q33iaSJuQ2LU2WEHv81wQ4HXxOlhdYKu7Ly8Cs0Kuw= Received: by 10.70.100.14 with SMTP id x14mr10644740wxb.1180466793804; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.9.19 with HTTP; Tue, 29 May 2007 12:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0705291226i140724b4y53bd7cf7c29c49c4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 20:26:33 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: My First Lojban Words 1.4 In-Reply-To: <1180457789.465c5b3d89784@ssl0.ovh.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_121080_32469873.1180466793707" References: <1180380955.465b2f1b54bc7@ssl0.ovh.net> <2f91285f0705281848n491bc366u6d2423c7de6fc41@mail.gmail.com> <1180457789.465c5b3d89784@ssl0.ovh.net> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 4775 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_121080_32469873.1180466793707 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/29/07, m.kornig@sondal.net wrote: > > > Learning words from dictionaries should actually be effective because > that > > is what gives you mostly reliable definitions and exemplary usages. > > If you have a good dictionary at hand, yes. But not for > beginners, I think. Martin, did you mean a good dictionary is *not* for beginners? Reliable definitions, exemplary usages... they aren't also for beginners? Alhough there isn't such thing as "The Lojban Dictionary", the gimste (gismu list) etc. themselves are quite useful. Indeed, in Lojban, I find it more successful to use a proper gimste which explains every word's place structure & rafsi & selma'o & frequency & related words than which doesn't. Especially if you are a beginner it's harder to guess all of these things which can't be said to be dispensable for your learning process. And it's not either difficult to search for them if you use the Find command of the browser, for instance. So, we can't say that the Lojban word lists are not meant for the beginners; the beginners *will* need them anyway. > I said the word for "train" would be practical more for Spanish learners > > than Lojban learners because it is likely that the occasion to > read/hear/say > > this term is more frequent in the Spanish language community than in the > > > Lojban community (there are more railroads in Mexico than in > Lojbanistan). > > Yet of course we can leave { trene } on the list if we don't bother > saving > > the number of items there. > > There is also another mechanism: > > Learners don't learn all words in a given textbook (or e-learning > tool) equally well. Consciously or unconsciously they "pick" > certain words of interest for them and learn them faster than > others. > There is not much you (as the author of a textbook) can do about it. > Sorry, I don't understand what your reply is for. "mechanism"? I agree that people do choose to learn certain words which interest them. Here you're talking about learners' individual preferences for vocabulary. But why did you think this had to do with the possibility that there may be more practical/real-life usages of the word for "train" in the Spanish language community than in the Lojban community? There are many railroads in Mexico NOT because some Spanish learners chose and memorized a word for "train" and some didn't. There are no railroads in Lojbanistan NOT because Lojban learners didn't equally learn the words in a given textbook. > Of course you should avoid having too many words in your list > that are not of interest for the majority of your learners (because > they might all get bored and loose interest in your method). But > having a few words in your book that not everybody finds interesting > won't do much harm. If I *know* that some words are uninteresting, I would replace them with something that seem to be more interesting. I agree that a list which includes e.g. "fabaceous", which is not terribly exciting & popular, won't do much harm. But if I were the author, I would have replaced it with something like "face". > Yes, by "my" I actually refer to myself. > It's my personal selection. The selection is not "objective" in > any way. In particular it's not the result of a public vote > or something. Even though some other people (like you, Vid) have > participated in the selecting words I won't dare to claim > objectiveness. Why do you want your My First Lojban Words to be studied by general Lojban beginners? If I were a total beginner, I would've liked to learn words of objective selection so that I could from the start share more community-oriented vocabulary/knowledge, more practical things. There will be both "bird" and "mouse" in the next version > of the list. Personally, I like "mouse", because this word > goes well together with "cat" and because there is the metaphor > PC mouse and there is Disney's Mickey Mouse? As somebody has already pointed out, you really need to be careful about malglico. What do you mean by "because there is the metaphor PC mouse"? Are you saying that you can include in your first Lojban vocabulary list the word {smacu} because you think you can use it as a metaphor for "PC mouse" in Lojban? ------=_Part_121080_32469873.1180466793707 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/29/07, m.kornig@sondal.net < m.kornig@sondal.net> wrote:
> Learning words from dictionaries should actually be effective because that
> is what gives you mostly reliable definitions and exemplary usages.

If you have a good dictionary at hand, yes. But not for
beginners, I think.

Martin,
did you mean a good dictionary is *not* for beginners?
Reliable definitions, exemplary usages... they aren't also for beginners?

Alhough there isn't such thing as "The Lojban Dictionary", the gimste (gismu list) etc. themselves are quite useful. Indeed, in Lojban, I find it more successful to use a proper gimste which explains every word's place structure & rafsi & selma'o & frequency & related words than which doesn't. Especially if you are a beginner it's harder to guess all of these things which can't be said to be dispensable for your learning process. And it's not either difficult to search for them if you use the Find command of the browser, for instance. So, we can't say that the Lojban word lists are not meant for the beginners; the beginners *will* need them anyway.


> I said the word for "train" would be practical more for Spanish learners
> than Lojban learners because it is likely that the occasion to read/hear/say
> this term is more frequent in the Spanish language community than in the
> Lojban community (there are more railroads in Mexico than in Lojbanistan).
> Yet of course we can leave { trene } on the list if we don't bother saving
> the number of items there.

There is also another mechanism:

Learners don't learn all words in a given textbook (or e-learning
tool) equally well. Consciously or unconsciously they "pick"
certain words of interest for them and learn them faster than
others.
There is not much you (as the author of a textbook) can do about it.

Sorry, I don't understand what your reply is for.
"mechanism"?
I agree that people do choose to learn certain words which interest them. Here you're talking about learners' individual preferences for vocabulary. But why did you think this had to do with the possibility that there may be more practical/real-life usages of the word for "train" in the Spanish language community than in the Lojban community? There are many railroads in Mexico NOT because some Spanish learners chose and memorized a word for "train" and some didn't. There are no railroads in Lojbanistan NOT because Lojban learners didn't equally learn the words in a given textbook.


> Of course you should avoid having too many words in your list
> that are not of interest for the majority of your learners (because
> they might all get bored and loose interest in your method). But
> having a few words in your book that not everybody finds interesting
> won't do much harm.

If I *know* that some words are uninteresting, I would replace them with something that seem to be more interesting. I agree that a list which includes e.g. "fabaceous", which is not terribly exciting & popular, won't do much harm. But if I were the author, I would have replaced it with something like "face".

 
Yes, by "my" I actually refer to myself.
It's my personal selection. The selection is not "objective" in
any way. In particular it's not the result of a public vote
or something. Even though some other people (like you, Vid) have
participated in the selecting words I won't dare to claim
objectiveness.

Why do you want your My First Lojban Words to be studied by general Lojban beginners?

If I were a total beginner, I would've liked to learn words of objective selection so that I could from the start share more community-oriented vocabulary/knowledge, more practical things.


There will be both "bird" and "mouse" in the next version
of the list. Personally, I like "mouse", because this word
goes well together with "cat" and because there is the metaphor
PC mouse and there is Disney's Mickey Mouse?

As somebody has already pointed out, you really need to be careful about malglico. What do you mean by "because there is the metaphor PC mouse"? Are you saying that you can include in your first Lojban vocabulary list the word {smacu} because you think you can use it as a metaphor for "PC mouse" in Lojban?
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