From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 18 08:10:35 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0IsE-0006I9-Dr for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:10:34 -0700 Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.243]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1I0IsB-0006Hy-5f for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:10:33 -0700 Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b21so402817ana for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:10:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=BKykTukwPx2hXUOiJ5LF1OZSOyX+AQlOZWSR0sWtPIW27e/CtJ89Ka/hizeWBYmHEVOn8hB7N8VFQaQFvlKHcg1OGHtNVIXR5IrYpDBaj1vm0/H+AcDsEGcNde7TBo0/ql1J0W6phGcNp6CJn7J4lCVJpsp7lHmW/JPij1WKVEc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=VLO72oImNrRqofHREjTMpdxPCNx+MT0tMA0F6M02/anEiZ7maSTZh4tRheOsK46r78pKZfuiqZV5A6p43p3z4KJVnjy9+NqoS6qf43wc6g62KcBJcKKjfR09JTzIF1A86LR9fgTdeMe3YZR6Pm+gKuIvBj56jQBpHqyepnFnC8s= Received: by 10.100.168.13 with SMTP id q13mr3516080ane.1182179423865; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.42.17 with HTTP; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560706180810k3169ff1fhda07b01204f9bec3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:10:23 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lujvo In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0706180725i419fe29fi415a15c825e2da07@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0706180349l733ac112h77580bb64ce5c3a9@mail.gmail.com> <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7DCB@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> <2f91285f0706180725i419fe29fi415a15c825e2da07@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5015 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 6/18/07, Vid Sintef wrote: > What overlaps at > the x1 of the combination "gerku" & "zdani" in the most unaffected/natural > way (prior to the creator's intention to specify/determine the place > structure as that which is of the most useful/common) should really be the > x1 of "gerku" & the x1 of "zdani", shouldn't it? When you have {broda brode}, the two most common options are {broda je brode} and {brode be lo broda}. I don't think either can be said to be more natural than the other before knowing what broda and brode are. {brode be lo nu broda} is also common. For example, if broda is what we would normally translate as an adjective (blanu, barda) then probably the most natural interpretation is {broda je brode}. If brode is what we would consider a transitive verb, and broda a noun that could naturally be the object of the verb, then the most natural interpretation is often {brode be lo broda}. Sometimes it could be {brode be fi lo broda}, it is very dependant on the meanings of broda and brode. It's hard to determine completely general rules for the "most natural" interpretation, but for example in the case "animate being" + zdani, I would think {zdani be lo "animate being"} will always win over {"animate being" je zdani} for naturalness. For some predicates, for example {gasnu}, it is almost guaranteed that broda+gasnu gives "x1 gasnu lo nu x2 broda". mu'o mi'e xorxes