From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 21 00:57:57 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1HYC-0002KE-2X for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:57:56 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.183]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I1HY9-0002K5-4W for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:57:55 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u77so944739pyb for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:57:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nJRTuvTwtj3Gg8Vwim7dOWpbEPXWoaUv2z+w78OcAABY+Xj/14dNO2Ps4PBWs12hWoEHmD69Ax4JEiuVaW+0nQEjCyBQPUrJx8NxDx5QS8eWjS2nd/Xu/hjHNqo7Z5F79cIILbcM20j9G/Rbqt8hV3nmTcxWTxk57aJ0fugjB2c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=PJxZNxt145h85yJ9EBWP98W6ExzlbBunqbJzM4wfx4qyU5UiEjKlpYLrmITFv+dNxCYRK+Jf5F5x4nvcBb7I/CBEWDHXb+IBWz3ub9UhuoFCjlbu4eKaO1TujC9UEbH7D1mbPswsn/N0q0FH42UUYSAQFMRw8QmPbOKeqqLR0WY= Received: by 10.65.214.2 with SMTP id r2mr3027932qbq.1182412668250; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.191.16 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Jun 2007 00:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df0706210057v11f977b3r60445b62fcacf2e1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:57:48 -0600 From: "Jon \"Top Hat\" Jones" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: music genres In-Reply-To: <2f91285f0706171134qc40df45p44eecf03fbf13149@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_91939_10618684.1182412668213" References: <2f91285f0706161328v15faca72if247ef09ac1be3d4@mail.gmail.com> <200706162152.01355.phma@phma.optus.nu> <2f91285f0706170349x36ebd434vc1013ce044b2319a@mail.gmail.com> <200706170934.24725.phma@phma.optus.nu> <2f91285f0706171134qc40df45p44eecf03fbf13149@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5082 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_91939_10618684.1182412668213 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline n 6/17/07, Vid Sintef wrote: > > On 6/17/07, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > > "Drum&bass" is a good choice for not using fu'ivla, but "house" is not. > > {zdani} includes not only human houses, but also bird nests, badger setts, > > and beehives (but not bonobo nests, which are {ckana}). If a birdwatcher > > unfamiliar with house music hears the term {zdazgi}, he may think of > > songs > > birds sing at home. > > > If {zdazgi} is bad because it can mean either "songs birds sing at home" > or "songs people enjoy at club", what about the very {zdani} which can mean > either " nest" or "house" or "lair" or "den"? What I have been noticing is > that {zdazgi} should be capable of bearing a conceptual framework equivalent > to that of {zdani} by which several different ideas (nest, house...) can be > meant in a generalized sense but can also be more specific by means of tanru > or the context. {zdazgi} may be thought of as a generic term for "music that > happens inside zdani", just like {zdani} is for "a structure that let things > live within it". Consider the Platonic "form". Words like {zdani} or {stizu} > or {danlu}... practically they are literal symbols of respective "forms". > And so may {zdazgi} be. And just like such modifications as {le do zdani} > and {le la djordj.buc. zdani} is possible, so would {le dikca zdazgi} and > {le cipni zdazgi} be possible. > That's a good argument for using {zdazgi} as "music listened to at home", but not, IMO, a good argument for using it as the translation of "the musical genre known as House". If anything, it's an argument /against/. After all, if a person unfamiliar with bird nests hears the term {zdani}, > she may think of some person's house at first, right? So, it should be ok if > somebody thinks of {zdazgi} as, at first, "songs which birds sing at home". > And when he hears something like {ba lenu xaufri tu'a le vacysai kei mi'a > klama zo'e vi le tcadu tezu'e lenu tirna lei zdazgi gi'e dansu}, it's > unlikely that he would mistake {zdazgi} to be songs sung by birds. > > Vid > Agreed, due to the context. Also, I don't think it's likely that {zdazgi=House} would be used outside of a context where it's obvious from context that the genre is what is being referred to. Personally, I'm against the use of fu'ivla as much as possible- it is my opinion that a viable lujvo translation should always be strived for first, and only when that is not feasible should a fu'ivla be used. It might be a prejudice on my part having grownup in a language created from combining at least four others, but I /really/, /REALLY/ don't like borrowed words. mu'a ca'e lo sutyzerle'a goi zoi gy. Velociraptor gy. respa lo sutra zerle'a (Velociraptor translates to "swift thief" according to www.reference.com.) -- mu'o mi'e .topy'at. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu ------=_Part_91939_10618684.1182412668213 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline n 6/17/07, Vid Sintef <picos.picos@gmail.com> wrote:
On 6/17/07, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
"Drum&bass" is a good choice for not using fu'ivla, but "house" is not.
{zdani} includes not only human houses, but also bird nests, badger setts,
and beehives (but not bonobo nests, which are {ckana}). If a birdwatcher
unfamiliar with house music hears the term {zdazgi}, he may think of songs
birds sing at home.

If {zdazgi} is bad because it can mean either "songs birds sing at home" or "songs people enjoy at club", what about the very {zdani} which can mean either " nest" or "house" or "lair" or "den"? What I have been noticing is that {zdazgi} should be capable of bearing a conceptual framework equivalent to that of {zdani} by which several different ideas (nest, house...) can be meant in a generalized sense but can also be more specific by means of tanru or the context. {zdazgi} may be thought of as a generic term for "music that happens inside zdani", just like {zdani} is for "a structure that let things live within it". Consider the Platonic "form". Words like {zdani} or {stizu} or {danlu}... practically they are literal symbols of respective "forms". And so may {zdazgi} be. And just like such modifications as {le do zdani} and {le la djordj.buc. zdani} is possible, so would {le dikca zdazgi} and {le cipni zdazgi} be possible.

That's a good argument for using {zdazgi} as "music listened to at home", but not, IMO, a good argument for using it as the translation of "the musical genre known as House". If anything, it's an argument /against/.

After all, if a person unfamiliar with bird nests hears the term {zdani}, she may think of some person's house at first, right? So, it should be ok if somebody thinks of {zdazgi} as, at first, "songs which birds sing at home". And when he hears something like {ba lenu xaufri tu'a le vacysai kei mi'a klama zo'e vi le tcadu tezu'e lenu tirna lei zdazgi gi'e dansu}, it's unlikely that he would mistake {zdazgi} to be songs sung by birds.
 
Vid


 Agreed, due to the context. Also, I don't think it's likely that {zdazgi=House} would be used outside of a context where it's obvious from context that the genre is what is being referred to.

Personally, I'm against the use of fu'ivla as much as possible- it is my opinion that a viable lujvo translation should always be strived for first, and only when that is not feasible should a fu'ivla be used. It might be a prejudice on my part having grownup in a language created from combining at least four others, but I /really/, /REALLY/ don't like borrowed words.

mu'a ca'e lo sutyzerle'a goi zoi gy. Velociraptor gy. respa lo sutra zerle'a

(Velociraptor translates to "swift thief" according to www.reference.com.)

--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu ------=_Part_91939_10618684.1182412668213--