From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Jun 23 08:56:33 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 23 Jun 2007 08:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I27yS-0002hm-Ve for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 08:56:33 -0700 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.183]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I27yP-0002hP-LZ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 08:56:32 -0700 Received: from [91.32.28.122] (helo=[192.168.178.21]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu6) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML29c-1I27yB47Yt-0002gM; Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:56:22 +0200 Message-ID: <467D42AA.3090704@online.de> Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:56:26 +0200 From: Klaus Schmirler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de-AT; rv:1.8.1.2pre) Gecko/20070111 SeaMonkey/1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] More phonology: voiced/unvoiced and fricative/fricative Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1+UJeLMWuCU29Gr/5GwVbfuypV/O4B88OjCsVD Uc+85Q8lPG8O7DGJEo8YOSWka+1pCNept7Nk3Q7rSagch04ntY 1EkPHaYzFkLzUnZ8ZOp/A== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5120 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: KSchmir@online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners My main point against lojban is that it is letter-centric and not very sophisticated in the phonetic department. For instance, I would argue that each stop is inherently coupled with its release, and that t, ts, tc, tl or p and pf are one sound each. But to get on topic: Among the rules for consonant clusters, I find the following: Voiced/unvoiced pairs are forbidden except with l, m, n, r. Their distinction being that they can be syllabic, I guess. But so can v. Combinations among c, j, s, z are forbidden. They are fricatives, but so are f, v, x and voiced x, an allophone of r. Now there's a whole bunch of xr words: xrabo Arabic xrani injure xriso Christian xruba buckwheat xruki turkey xrula flower xruti return They taste best to my German palate when I pronounce them with an initial ach sound and then just add voicing. And I think one of the design principles (which admittedly I haven't found, or I'd have cited it above) was that sounds should be maximally distinct. So does [xR] count as maximally distinct - if so, I rest my case - or is the uvular r forbidden in this context? Klaus