From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Jun 24 03:35:43 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I2PRX-00074u-3B for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:35:43 -0700 Received: from 25.mail-out.ovh.net ([213.186.37.103]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I2PRU-00074n-8q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2007 03:35:42 -0700 Received: (qmail 13454 invoked by uid 503); 24 Jun 2007 10:36:00 -0000 Received: (QMFILT: 1.0); 24 Jun 2007 10:36:00 -0000 Received: from b6.ovh.net (HELO mail76.ha.ovh.net) (213.186.33.56) by 25.mail-out.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2007 10:36:00 -0000 Received: from b0.ovh.net (HELO queue-out) (213.186.33.50) by b0.ovh.net with SMTP; 24 Jun 2007 10:35:40 -0000 Received: from 1.127-225-89.dsl.completel.net (1.127-225-89.dsl.completel.net [89.225.127.1]) by ssl0.ovh.net (IMP) with HTTP for ; Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:35:40 +0200 Message-ID: <1182681340.467e48fc934c6@ssl0.ovh.net> Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:35:40 +0200 From: m.kornig@sondal.net To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: More phonology: voiced/unvoiced and fricative/fricative References: <467D42AA.3090704@online.de> In-Reply-To: <467D42AA.3090704@online.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.6 X-Originating-IP: 89.225.127.1 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 X-Spam-Score-Int: 3 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5125 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: m.kornig@sondal.net Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Selon Klaus Schmirler : > Now there's a whole bunch of xr words: > > xrabo Arabic > xrani injure > xriso Christian > xruba buckwheat > xruki turkey > xrula flower > xruti return I find {xr} hard to pronounce (even though I've a German palate, too). > They taste best to my German palate when I pronounce them with an > initial ach sound and then just add voicing. And I think one of the > design principles (which admittedly I haven't found, or I'd have cited > it above) was that sounds should be maximally distinct. So does [xR] > count as maximally distinct - if so, I rest my case - or is the uvular > r forbidden in this context? I don't know the term "uvular r". But generally I agree the the Lojban phonetic rules seem to be a bit arbitrary. I sometimes wonder about the common distinction between vowels and consonants. And consequently about the necessity to have a classical vowel sound in each word and/or syllable. For instance why are words like {c}, {f}, {pst}, {m} {kj}, {pc} or {gr} fobidden in Lojban? I have no difficulties in pronouncing them, even relatively loud! Some languages have sounds like that, e.g. German, although you might not find them in traditional dictionaries... Here are some words I sometimes use: {pst} means "Listen, but don't make much noice!". {m} means "Maybe." or "I'm not entirely convinced." or "Very nice!" or "I'm surprised!" (depending on length and melody). {c} means "Be quiet!" or "Shut up!". {gr} means "I don't like your suggestion at all.". {f} means "I'm tired." Martin