From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Jun 24 04:45:15 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 24 Jun 2007 04:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I2QWm-0008II-33 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2007 04:45:13 -0700 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.187]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I2QWb-0008Hz-De for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 24 Jun 2007 04:45:07 -0700 Received: from [91.32.36.60] (helo=[192.168.178.21]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu3) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKxQS-1I2QWU2xxC-0008JC; Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:44:55 +0200 Message-ID: <467E5942.40609@online.de> Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2007 13:45:06 +0200 From: Klaus Schmirler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de-AT; rv:1.8.1.2pre) Gecko/20070111 SeaMonkey/1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: More phonology: voiced/unvoiced and fricative/fricative References: <467D42AA.3090704@online.de> <1182681340.467e48fc934c6@ssl0.ovh.net> In-Reply-To: <1182681340.467e48fc934c6@ssl0.ovh.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX19A5+4WNJ5pRlp1Z32LXPkYO+rIoTTSbw1Tb43 VSUyE5zbffdflWyOV/KIWPO08+hwt11y/b3osJJCeuGvbuVwdD CCrcsyLtSBn/eKclhRkYQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5126 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: KSchmir@online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners m.kornig@sondal.net schrieb: > Selon Klaus Schmirler : > >> Now there's a whole bunch of xr words: >> >> xrabo Arabic >> xrani injure >> xriso Christian >> xruba buckwheat >> xruki turkey >> xrula flower >> xruti return > > I find {xr} hard to pronounce (even though I've a German > palate, too). > >> They taste best to my German palate when I pronounce them with an >> initial ach sound and then just add voicing. And I think one of the >> design principles (which admittedly I haven't found, or I'd have cited >> it above) was that sounds should be maximally distinct. So does [xR] >> count as maximally distinct - if so, I rest my case - or is the uvular >> r forbidden in this context? > > I don't know the term "uvular r". I mean the variety used in the middle altitudes of Germany and the north of France (and that supposedly spread from the French court with I don't remember which king, like the Spanish th and the English eyether - from the other respective courts, I mean). But generally I agree > the the Lojban phonetic rules seem to be a bit arbitrary. > > > I sometimes wonder about the > common distinction between vowels and consonants. > And consequently about the necessity to have a > classical vowel sound in each word and/or syllable. > > For instance why are words like {c}, {f}, {pst}, {m} > {kj}, {pc} or {gr} fobidden in Lojban? > > I have no difficulties in pronouncing them, > even relatively loud! Some languages have sounds like > that, e.g. German, although you might not find them > in traditional dictionaries... Here are some words I > sometimes use: These should be covered by attitudinals, but I find it hard to translate my ingrained attitudinals to other languages. My German "aha" quite innocuosly means "I see", and because I see a lot, I use it a lot. Many English speakers tend to take it as "Caught ya!" and feel unduly monitored. I know that, I can explain it, but I can't switch off my aha reflex. > > {pst} means "Listen, but don't make much noice!". > {m} means "Maybe." or "I'm not entirely convinced." .iacu'i > or "Very nice!" or "I'm surprised!" (depending on > length and melody). > {c} means "Be quiet!" or "Shut up!". for "Don't let others hear it" maybe .i'inai, which would cover the same meaning of pst, too > {gr} means "I don't like your suggestion at all.". le'o(?) > {f} means "I'm tired." tired of something? .u'inai > > Martin > > >