From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jun 26 03:45:34 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I38YA-0002eC-01 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:45:34 -0700 Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.183]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1I38Y7-0002e3-14 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 26 Jun 2007 03:45:33 -0700 Received: from [91.32.14.50] (helo=[192.168.178.21]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (node=mrelayeu5) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0ML25U-1I38Xz22XU-0006H2; Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:45:24 +0200 Message-ID: <4680EE42.5050409@online.de> Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:45:22 +0200 From: Klaus Schmirler User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; de-AT; rv:1.8.1.2pre) Gecko/20070111 SeaMonkey/1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: More phonology: voiced/unvoiced and fricative/fricative References: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7E03@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> In-Reply-To: <1189A858F8918F43BE3F9C7603C73FB4031E7E03@0456-its-exmp01.us.saic.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/Gd8sPON3SBdXpxDCu8lp4u7uWWIvjqpyK4vm aT7/l2ICxhjsSGN36/jDozokyzULs76afb2iCPLp8U3ly8rWgP yT9A6FGVJkvywQdQ7UZIg== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5145 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: KSchmir@online.de Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Turniansky, Michael [UNK] schrieb: > > Martin: > -----Original Message----- > > >>> Now there's a whole bunch of xr words: >>> >>> xrabo Arabic >>> xrani injure >>> xriso Christian >>> xruba buckwheat >>> xruki turkey >>> xrula flower >>> xruti return > >> I find {xr} hard to pronounce (even though I've a German >> palate, too). > > I dunno. I find it rather easy, but then I had a moderate exposure to > Hebrew and Yiddish in my formative years, in addition to my native > English (Spanish wasn't until later, ca. age 12-16). I tend to > pronounce the combination as (I think, I'm no phonologist) a voiceless > uvular fricative (which is probably not a technically legal > pronunciation of the lojbanic x) Both the ich (a whispered yod) and the ach sound are valid, as far as I know transforming to a alveolar trill. > > You could always add a buffer sound if you find it too difficult, > of course. The ich sound (which may be what Martin tries to use) needs awkward tongue repositioning in the neighborhood of either r variant - but for my German ear, at least, the distinction of the sounds is much clearer (different places of articulation, no overlap in the time domain possible) with the ich sound. If you use uvular fricatives for both sounds, xr becomes as easy as saying "months" with the dorsal s variant (a problem at least for German learners). klaus