From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Aug 11 11:43:57 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IJvwK-0004JN-Bf for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:43:56 -0700 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.190]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IJvwG-0004J8-8Z for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:43:55 -0700 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 19so1862402fkr for ; Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:43:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=IG3dtGB5E2lm0PLCoKNC0aXNOgoi17VmyZYNSZYHqeYhEjHxGdJESgcwqjKHAq4iOYwQc5quy09wfsHm/hkEgrxc3s8gaDRIXGcDgTPlzmMH980BOAx9lyMjEqwkS+AW3AAd3+2HAhV1LVgFJdWH7YSaITDOA/cb7/fTc2o2BIE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=ea6bWqiXVLf7GeCLF12YdGF6hM9Sc39i2hyVM3mmVrOHTQTt5b60ITXB5td9hHzUBOFDC2HrUNJ/jiKgR8qiOmM5k7Ct3e4kAwYoH+V8cNMX8PPJlAbWeFLEHPMpk0BlNbbFK/Te+kQYYYeRESaWngQ88ECBfuZd3EeFwtX0D10= Received: by 10.86.73.17 with SMTP id v17mr3005211fga.1186857829987; Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.27.19 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Aug 2007 11:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560708111143l2cca8616t44fa4c45e7686e31@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 15:43:49 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <925d17560708111037m23f2d905j1033b7c216da6be0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0708101833g5f57ce09h84cf801068bb1937@mail.gmail.com> <002301c7dc2b$3573bb70$f25cf8d9@ayuwiqa> <925d17560708111037m23f2d905j1033b7c216da6be0@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5349 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners This condition mentioned in the article for identifying brivla: * Have a consonant cluster (at least two adjacent consonants) within or between the first and second syllables is also not quite right. For example consider {ba'armo'a}. The required cluster occurs only between the second and third syllables. CLL says that a consonant cluster is required within the first five letters, but that is not really good either because it disallows a form like ba'airba for no good reason (while allowing .a'airba for example). I would just say that the second consonant of a brivla (where the apostrophe doesn't count as a consonant) must be part of a consonant cluster. But all of these focus on the necessary conditions for brivlahood, not the sufficient conditions, as none of them deal with the tosmabru and slinku'i issues. Giving the necessary and sufficient conditions for brivla is not very simple, as it in practice requires talking about rafsi. mu'o mi'e xorxes