From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Aug 14 05:59:41 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IKvzo-00005S-B3 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:59:41 -0700 Received: from wx-out-0506.google.com ([66.249.82.231]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IKvzj-00005K-Dk for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:59:39 -0700 Received: by wx-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i27so1310258wxd for ; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:59:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MRFNS5yj5lQIvCJK0paiAuUfW+C4FDnwSoIUZuLTCQBYyxKThw/povy+cQMwrC3drE8s//DsHdDJSpAG2j8Hxxe8OaRakCSu3s9dXsG9RKSCIJcp+F8BCGLu7Zdkxf/h5yqLj9q+5jwsQCctATZz1oyLpUacG5k9eoupplqLY60= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LiLfGMJBGZsrTCQ6UXpgOXme3b4Y4hjYHv7QqoWTlCiUw/IMeRFg8TGWTGlUJ3s/zLIXQRE3sHlXiMDbIRi6KPLp0OlY5uz67D576dl4lmLTtI3fHvQFAreB4gP+1l6C4B9bLle1TxMousaSAee+nGW/kCktmqI0fG8rHB7526M= Received: by 10.70.129.6 with SMTP id b6mr11401242wxd.1187096373038; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.38.7 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Aug 2007 05:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0708140559n1981eb32vd491bcdb7632abba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:59:32 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: le vinji vs lo vinji In-Reply-To: <925d17560708130906y258edbe1m2854238c3041a975@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0708130410g245818a8tc6038a3c7254a822@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560708130906y258edbe1m2854238c3041a975@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5361 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 8/13/07, Jorge Llambías wrote: > If the child wanted to say, for example, "I like theme parks with airplanes", then the correct choice would be {lo}, because he would not have any particular airplanes in mind. Even if what he wanted to refer to did not really fit for the place structure of {vinji}? I mean, what if the child asked someone about this "airplane": {fi mo seljakne cu ba vinji ti mi}? > Using {vinji} for such things is not a lie. A lie is a false statement made > with intent to deceive. > If the child asks {tu mo} pointing to the airplane > ride, and the adult says {tu pinji}, they are not lying, they are using the > word {pinji} in a wider sense than its core meaning. zo'o But, again, what if the child then questions: {pinji ma}? The adult won't be likely to answer that. If it's the case that the adult seriously thinks that the object over there *is* a penis yet truthfully doesn't know "whose penis that is" (i.e. how to fill in the x2 sumti of that object, the {pinji}), that's fine, he is not at least lying to the child by uttering {lo pinji} (although he would probably need some psychiatric counseling); but if he had already known that such an argument (the x2 place of {pinji}) was impossible for the object to have since the object wasn't really the x1 place of {pinji}, then he must have lied to the child, mustn't he? > > Will the plate next to that toy ride, written > > for children, in a lojbanistan, have to be saying {le vinji} or {lo > > vinji}? > > Probably {la vinji}, if that's the name of the ride. Can that plate also be saying {fi'i ko se vinji ti}, while it cannot be more specific like {fi'i ko se vinji ti lo banli seljakne} since there isn't such a thing which really propells the ride into the sky? mu'o mi'e vid