From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Oct 24 05:47:09 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Ikfdc-0002QL-5J for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:47:08 -0700 Received: from nf-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.182.188]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IkfdP-0002Pv-3D for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:47:07 -0700 Received: by nf-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 4so135535nfv for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:46:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=pVhN/PxCkNhLiGJlRM+mWtuCzmWo8uNymBvkgisK+4k=; b=bzw5hDevvmtFOuYqpcq0Osej2+fbq65N/sMpFti50LdJqPAq2tnCfCFrd13DkYjPMn8UShjxBud0/5A653IpNNAsiVhWs78gSNruEvnMbQuEsm/xqsUWDwjcjbMZwS+CUaKZ+VA5PyE18hW3vojRxTQn6HxttZvCbIsf0J4g9LY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=MatDqzuTZRrWfhyMZ6cSUyAhaJObLqSYrc8f6FHs6F9sc2In+lKkNGjAS8YVm98t+QrV6FX1ZLrTSAqFPBi9njWQLrEzHqbqCjR5pghyLCnQvF9jYiRL9xg8yaSLSKqhxIH/lCMV+aOzVBjMvoSuqGeS/114DskSfdihqPXoShE= Received: by 10.86.100.7 with SMTP id x7mr443730fgb.1193230010377; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.86.13 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 05:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560710240546j541a8e50n834afa058372c4f2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:46:50 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: learning to climb on floors In-Reply-To: <71550650710240124m111eb71ftff3fa65670e87fc8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <6ee9d0ca0710222351q7547a487q41a4e89b31ab2f30@mail.gmail.com> <200710230703.04940.phma@phma.optus.nu> <6ee9d0ca0710230707q775f2d89o8a33afd586c69b56@mail.gmail.com> <5e124660710230747q6dcb1da8y4e3fca5c10e4952f@mail.gmail.com> <6ee9d0ca0710231028y4e96cb86s6417bad09115c5cd@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710231049k120b01a5o7dbbe705522431f2@mail.gmail.com> <6ee9d0ca0710231113n4e2889adl8700f7e124a5c095@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560710231204u8176ab2v3637e3d267ccae41@mail.gmail.com> <71550650710240124m111eb71ftff3fa65670e87fc8@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5559 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 10/24/07, Yoav Nir wrote: > Isn't {crebi'o} optimistic? Doesn't it asuume that Connor will become > proficient in crawling? Yes, and so does English "learn". You may study a lot and never learn anything, but once you've learned something, you know it. Connor may try and try to crawl, and never succeed, but once he has learned how, he knows how. > Besides, I thought that learning how to is also cilre, because that's the > word used in the title of L4B. Surely lojban is not a fact, but rather > something you learn how to do. Should I say {mi crebi'o la lojban} rather > than {mi cilre [fi] la lojban} ? I'm sure {djuno} and {cilre} have often been used for knowing/learning how to do something. Perhaps usage will end up redefining these words with that wider sense, so that they are not only about knowledge but also about skill. But the definitions as written say they're about knowing/learning facts. Someone may learn a lot of facts about Lojban without learning how to speak Lojban. One thing is acquisition of knowledge, another thing is acquisition of skill. mu'o mi'e xorxes