From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Oct 24 08:24:46 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Iki6A-000624-8S for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:24:46 -0700 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.182]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Iki68-00061r-0e for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:24:46 -0700 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so160624pyi for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:24:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=o9g+Kxxpnc4c9oNLWi5QL8ZdGgbe+cMIjVQtHkkTroU=; b=GHYWo24osFjTS4bgq9YKQUoaYeF2DJ9hDikJ0vGZmUDC3y7bi7SekgN9SrC/fgasU4IH4TO5iRctANVYi4/rNIvHjZLjJtGfYfOFibKF89b5bMvPbMb40ExTl2CpKPMZZ7VjTCJH+TuQ92+HrllqkyEXLbvB9IKJKZchs/juNzs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=tRs5VVEaCDOdEkXB1j417t8Y0nrAJXnmlnAR3Yn/f0pzA4gojxtAxH6//OmLy/C9muk6/DWqIPb2bLQQVm/TCtt7NkM4QeoyrQ/bkLVWuQr7D88V6XnqqvUA3YhWYBO8ENlmFjLu3FPvjRRkKD5QokDZwt5jfU9vfgpIVQgZWqU= Received: by 10.65.150.18 with SMTP id c18mr1581013qbo.1193239479143; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.64.156.11 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <71550650710240824g5ba8643dre4bc6439806b9e83@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 17:24:39 +0200 From: "Yoav Nir" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: usefulness In-Reply-To: <2204fa080710240749s63fb9df2s6953fddefe4cefcb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_7111_10223087.1193239479125" References: <2204fa080710240614t4b9c184erd7d3acf2ac03ddb5@mail.gmail.com> <2204fa080710240749s63fb9df2s6953fddefe4cefcb@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5569 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: yoav.nir@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_7111_10223087.1193239479125 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm too new to lojban to have firm ideas about it, but I do know my Hebrew. Modern Hebrew is very firmly based on the undead language. Since it was undead, I suppose you could call it resurrected. The comparison with Latin is apt. Hebrew was used for centuries only for scholarly discourse and prayer. What Ben Yehuda did was not to invent a new language. He only invented many words that were missing. I don't think anything about the language became more or less conductive to modern thinking and technology, except that words were missing for modern things: trains, newspapers, electricity. The structure of the language is hardly changed, and so Israeli schoolchildren can easily read the 2500-year-old text of the bible. It's much closer to them than the merely 400-year-old KJV is to modern American children. On 10/24/07, Jared Angell wrote: > > Well, Eppcott, you are undoubtable contributing in exactly the way > that I was describing. > > I am niave when it comes to linguistics departments, I admit it. I > suppose I was being overly optimistic. > > On the other hand I HAVE studied Jewish history my entire like and > lived in Israel for 7 years. Modern Hebrew IS NOT the result of what > you describe it IS the result of the lifetime efforts of a single > linguist and everyone in Isreal knows that. > > Hebrew was a language in usage comparable to latin over the last > several centuries for over 1,000 years. It did not evolve, it was > basically undead (dead, but in studial usage for biblical scholars and > rabbis). Modern Hebrew does not draw greatly from that Hebrew...where > it does draw from that Hebrew is in base words solely. That form of > Hebrew was not conducive to modern thinking, technology, and > communication. > > So I hope I have saved your lung. > > On 10/24/07, Matt Arnold wrote: > > Jared, > > > > > I really liked the idea of Lojban but at my present level of > > > involvement I see no point in carrying on with it if it is never going > > > to be anything more than a code that an extremely low percentage of > > > the Internet population uses to play mental games with one another. > > > Which is, forgive me, exactly what it is at the moment. > > > > Why forgive you? We like it that way, and we want it that way. Lojban > > is a toy language. http://nemorathwald.com/node/31 > > > > I use it for the same reason that Star Trek fans use Klingon. Maybe > > Lojban will change the world, and maybe it won't, but I personally > > will leave that up to you; I have no interest in that. > > > > That having been said, I would like there to be a larger number of > > geeks who use Lojban as a secret code. The best hope for creating such > > a community of active speakers is in the game I devised: > > > > http://nemorathwald.com/node/43 > > > > > I feel that if key members of linguistics departments all over > > > the world were shown the inherit value of Lojban than classes in it > > > could commence within a year and people would begin learning and using > > > this language academically. > > > > Forgive me, but this statement is hilariously naive! > > > > > If people were in a Lojban community where > > > Lojban culture could develop and children grew up speaking Lojban (it > > > would be Utopia probably) then translating things and writing things > > > in Lojban would be as trivial as it was to translate thing from a > > > multiplicity of languages into Modern Hebrew when the state of Israel > > > was founded. > > > > I laughed so hard at this, I nearly coughed up a lung. The creation of > > Modern Hebrew was the result of thousands of years of the religious > > and ethnic heritage of millions of people. And Utopia? It's never > > going to happen, it's fantasy. Fantasy is fun, which is what I like > > about Utopia. But taking it seriously only leads to crimes against > > humanity. > > > > > For those of you who have no academic interests but who feel as I do I > > > would suggest teaching Lojban to your families or opening up a night > > > course in your local area where you teach Lojban after you yourself > > > have learned it to a certain degree. > > > > I've been doing that for years. The largest local Lojban group in the > > world meets in my house. > > > > -Eppcott > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jared > > "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is > knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no > death, there is the Universe" > > "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" > > "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" > > "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" > > > > ------=_Part_7111_10223087.1193239479125 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I'm too new to lojban to have firm ideas about it, but I do know my Hebrew.

 
Modern Hebrew is very firmly based on the undead language. Since it was undead, I suppose you could call it resurrected. The comparison with Latin is apt. Hebrew was used for centuries only for scholarly discourse and prayer.

What Ben Yehuda did was not to invent a new language. He only invented many words that were missing. I don't think anything about the language became more or less conductive to modern thinking and technology, except that words were missing for modern things: trains, newspapers, electricity.

The structure of the language is hardly changed, and so Israeli schoolchildren can easily read the 2500-year-old text of the bible. It's much closer to them than the merely 400-year-old KJV is to modern American children.

On 10/24/07, Jared Angell <angell.jared@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, Eppcott, you are undoubtable contributing in exactly the way
that I was describing.

I am niave when it comes to linguistics departments, I admit it.  I
suppose I was being overly optimistic.

On the other hand I HAVE studied Jewish history my entire like and
lived in Israel for 7 years.  Modern Hebrew IS NOT the result of what
you describe it IS the result of the lifetime efforts of a single
linguist and everyone in Isreal knows that.

Hebrew was a language in usage comparable to latin over the last
several centuries for over 1,000 years.  It did not evolve, it was
basically undead (dead, but in studial usage for biblical scholars and
rabbis).  Modern Hebrew does not draw greatly from that Hebrew...where
it does draw from that Hebrew is in base words solely.  That form of
Hebrew was not conducive to modern thinking, technology, and
communication.

So I hope I have saved your lung.

On 10/24/07, Matt Arnold < matt.mattarn@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jared,
>
> > I really liked the idea of Lojban but at my present level of
> > involvement I see no point in carrying on with it if it is never going
> > to be anything more than a code that an extremely low percentage of
> > the Internet population uses to play mental games with one another.
> > Which is, forgive me, exactly what it is at the moment.
>
> Why forgive you? We like it that way, and we want it that way. Lojban
> is a toy language. http://nemorathwald.com/node/31
>
> I use it for the same reason that Star Trek fans use Klingon. Maybe
> Lojban will change the world, and maybe it won't, but I personally
> will leave that up to you; I have no interest in that.
>
> That having been said, I would like there to be a larger number of
> geeks who use Lojban as a secret code. The best hope for creating such
> a community of active speakers is in the game I devised:
>
> http://nemorathwald.com/node /43
>
> > I feel that if key members of linguistics departments all over
> > the world were shown the inherit value of Lojban than classes in it
> > could commence within a year and people would begin learning and using
> > this language academically.
>
> Forgive me, but this statement is hilariously naive!
>
> > If people were in a Lojban community where
> > Lojban culture could develop and children grew up speaking Lojban (it
> > would be Utopia probably) then translating things and writing things
> > in Lojban would be as trivial as it was to translate thing from a
> > multiplicity of languages into Modern Hebrew when the state of Israel
> > was founded.
>
> I laughed so hard at this, I nearly coughed up a lung. The creation of
> Modern Hebrew was the result of thousands of years of the religious
> and ethnic heritage of millions of people. And Utopia? It's never
> going to happen, it's fantasy. Fantasy is fun, which is what I like
> about Utopia. But taking it seriously only leads to crimes against
> humanity.
>
> > For those of you who have no academic interests but who feel as I do I
> > would suggest teaching Lojban to your families or opening up a night
> > course in your local area where you teach Lojban after you yourself
> > have learned it to a certain degree.
>
> I've been doing that for years. The largest local Lojban group in the
> world meets in my house.
>
> -Eppcott
>
>
>
>


--
Jared

"There is no emotion, there is peace;  there is no ignorance, there is
knowledge;  there is no passion, there is serenity;  there is no
death, there is the Universe"

"Work smart when you can and hard if you must"

"When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat"

"Open Source: The light side of computing.  It's never too late to join"




 
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