From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Oct 24 20:18:23 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IktEl-0006En-2Q for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:18:23 -0700 Received: from nz-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.162.227]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IktEi-0006Ef-Op for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:18:22 -0700 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s18so407963nze for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:18:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=8ylez4zagbXc7f4YvD2/KsrnpOud9FoPft+T4ZILKCI=; b=J5bPmYv9ahVL2Xg55vy7FEOZpeH8AarTKI//JTf+oRQ9n7QxdhTQDE1rWunljjghHSiL2QqHVpDOou8Ff50WN6PC8A3Q57UK5HZv1sPzRgcE9sfu9Nc2G6XjTfYhCo+jpP2YMDVNzQLwvU0oNuJRY67fVKFDrXcrIDt/AuoFJHg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=WjRRrLfqo5WYxJ4diJzBctYV2YWhykxdiHS0vGxeWyfU1GfcnUdhQQmt2TiDNlrUmx0BVsYj6HG4FmCvpu8ua6DjAkySd4Eb+VXSxIXuOe2cGVh6qoTuwCbMhgvoGCA6/TvnRK3QsopCyJObrnzOpKXEmVRJiAkubteN+X2YcJw= Received: by 10.142.104.9 with SMTP id b9mr382362wfc.1193282298979; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.185.10 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <14b331f70710242018w73daf50as15c881054543ff95@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 20:18:18 -0700 From: "Nathan Glenn" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: geodesic dome In-Reply-To: <97f5058c0710242002x59356ec2y5f5cd1573aa1963c@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11994_11804128.1193282298877" References: <2204fa080710241504x4784f740n559fad67f6504056@mail.gmail.com> <71550650710241529q450b70ecn428050e75e6b58b1@mail.gmail.com> <8905c87a0710241646k258db02av554206eded586e11@mail.gmail.com> <200710242131.53655.phma@phma.optus.nu> <8905c87a0710241842h36070025tf625d14918ae8f41@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710241850n14512f0ai2b214c0c39a63b03@mail.gmail.com> <2204fa080710241901k4b916a9t3d930b02ea7ed103@mail.gmail.com> <2204fa080710241906l70ef354i6f1ff6d9aa0e42d9@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710241958g55637af8xf017d9a756ace2b0@mail.gmail.com> <97f5058c0710242002x59356ec2y5f5cd1573aa1963c@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5594 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: garfieldnate@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_11994_11804128.1193282298877 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 10/24/07, Penguino wrote: > > Besides, voiced-unvoiced pairs are hard to pronounce. > > On 10/25/07, Penguino wrote: > > > > Hey I'm just informing. I'm not about to enter a hardliner/naturalist > > debate. > > > > On 10/25/07, Jared Angell < angell.jared@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > "The v and s aren't allowed together; they're a voiced-unvoiced > > > consonant pair. They must either be separated with a y, or a > > > different rafsi be selected." > > > > > > If Lojban is being allowed to evolve like a natural language than who > > > cares? > > > > > > Everytime a new fraze enters into contemporary English it violates > > > English grammatical rules. At least when it comes to spoken English. > > > > > > In fact a great deal of spoken language seems to come directly from > > > the poetic license of music...which almost never conforms to the rules > > > > > > of grammar by definition. > > > > > > Why be particular about these things to maintain the rules of Lojban? > > > > > > All natural languages have phonotactic rules; for example, in English, the consonant cluster "sbl" in the onset of a syllable is unnatural, as is "nskch" in the coda. Thus (anyone familiar with Strong Bad?) the word "sblounskched" is rather ridiculous because it couldn't possibly be natural English. The phonotactic rules choses for Lojban, however, have an international community in mind, so they are meant to be neutral to all. Letting Lojban be completely Anglicized simply because most of its speakers are from the English speaking world would be less than neutral. You must remember that when you add words outside of the phonological constraints made for Lojban, you will do it like an English speaker unless you make a conscious effort not to do so. Also, consants in voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters usually assimilate into either voiced or unvoiced clusters over time or as part of spoken language. (For example, "sblounskched" would probably be pronounced with a /p/ instead of /b/ by anyone not stressing to pronounce it the way it is spelled.) Therefore, the rule may prevent differences from appearing between spoken and written Lojban, which makes it easier to learn. ------=_Part_11994_11804128.1193282298877 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 10/24/07, Penguino <spheniscine@gmail.com> wrote:
Besides, voiced-unvoiced pairs are hard to pronounce.


On 10/25/07, Penguino < spheniscine@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey I'm just informing. I'm not about to enter a hardliner/naturalist debate.


On 10/25/07, Jared Angell < angell.jared@gmail.com> wrote:
"The v and s aren't allowed together; they're a voiced-unvoiced
consonant pair. They must either be separated with a  y, or a
different rafsi be selected."

If Lojban is being allowed to evolve like a natural language than who cares?

Everytime a new fraze enters into contemporary English it violates
English grammatical rules.  At least when it comes to spoken English.

In fact a great deal of spoken language seems to come directly from
the poetic license of music...which almost never conforms to the rules
of grammar by definition.

Why be particular about these things to maintain the rules of Lojban?

All natural languages have phonotactic rules; for example, in English, the consonant cluster "sbl" in the onset of a syllable is unnatural, as is "nskch" in the coda. Thus (anyone familiar with Strong Bad?) the word "sblounskched" is rather ridiculous because it couldn't possibly be natural English. The phonotactic rules choses for Lojban, however, have an international community in mind, so they are meant to be neutral to all. Letting Lojban be completely Anglicized simply because most of its speakers are from the English speaking world would be less than neutral. You must remember that when you add words outside of the phonological constraints made for Lojban, you will do it like an English speaker unless you make a conscious effort not to do so.
Also, consants in voiced-unvoiced consonant clusters usually assimilate into either voiced or unvoiced clusters over time or as part of spoken language. (For example, "sblounskched" would probably be pronounced with a /p/ instead of /b/ by anyone not stressing to pronounce it the way it is spelled.) Therefore, the rule may prevent differences from appearing between spoken and written Lojban, which makes it easier to learn.
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