From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Oct 25 19:14:43 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlEih-0007tn-BE for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:14:43 -0700 Received: from mu-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.134.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1IlEif-0007tc-1P for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:14:43 -0700 Received: by mu-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i10so1145019mue for ; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:14:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=DR/BvW0wgTXtJzkH0uotB08CBuVjRBXlOJfbtVwJjpo=; b=ZVMaSBnxgSq148Jvo3ywaSw+XlAGB1L3tNa1URCdBz3A7IaXxqq6YECaNXrOpXyrZGcqbv5h3aIQqRU3er3w1vdwCetLGSQsH2ZgrS3Z06TMA2RsJbLIYWG9aPPqLGSTKqXZvuXUk2SjQp8aS9JeF+YMPzZoL9qlWdAoZBzHeTM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=UKsQt6xEP9xAn8boFeFMh+t7rd6qOuGH9pYVCRa2rDJN9gAf8Jb8k/jREhYWimMayH41VZI1UOcJnSUs5RrTVR8x7e2WDqmLzkV/lJYDLF9CpCkzW8gT43ITC+HvFA+dnGWMEgIBUjQ25WOjlvVbmusaWWQM3gWd7pfwaKC9P58= Received: by 10.64.3.9 with SMTP id 9mr17093403qbc.1193364871867; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.65.159.16 with HTTP; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <702226df0710251914i3fa13ee3qff786590381bacaf@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 20:14:31 -0600 From: "Jon \"Top Hat\" Jones" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ''''''''''' In-Reply-To: <2204fa080710251516w18930e95mf56628a2e841a688@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2204fa080710251408l73265a1fh42569c30289e406e@mail.gmail.com> <47211028.8040500@lojban.org> <2204fa080710251516w18930e95mf56628a2e841a688@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5669 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: eyeonus@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners I may be confusing this with Loglan, but i believe that originally the {'} was what the {,} is now, with the "h" sound being optional for those who have difficulty with pronouncing {a,o} and the like. On 10/25/07, Jared Angell wrote: > I see. > > Okay, I'm really curious: Are you a linguist Bob? And if not then why > haven't you received an honorary degree in linguistics by now? > > Djared (Farlus) > > On 10/25/07, Robert LeChevalier wrote: > > > > Jared Angell wrote: > > > Why was ' chosen instead of h? since h is left out but it's in the > > > middle of the keyboard (even in Russian) this bothers me as a bad and > > > annoying choice as the ' seems counterintuitive to anyone accustomed to > > > the romantic character set and keyboard. Perhaps there are Spanish and > > > French keyboards which readily have ' but lack h???? > > > > > > This irritates me something fierce so I'd like to hear the logic behind > > > it if anyone knows. > > > > h is a consonant in all languages that have the letter. > > > > In Lojban, at least in theory, it is NOT defined as a consonant, but a > > solution to the problem of vowel glides when two vowels are adjacent. > > > > Thinking of the orthography as representing the sound-stream: > > If a close-comma appears between the two vowels, then there is a voiced > > glide. If an apostrophe appears, then it is a devoiced glide. If a > > period appears, there is a glottal stop (and it separates into two > > words), and if none of these appear, the vowels form a diphthong. > > > > English speakers (and those of many other languages) often hear a > > devoiced glide as an "h", and more importantly, they tend speak a > > devoiced glide as an "h" as the default. In theory, you could use a > > different devoiced sound (as long as it isn't one of the other unvoiced > > consonants of Lojban, or a glottal stop), and some have used a devoiced > > "th" which of course makes a lojbanist sound like like they have a funny > > lithp. > > > > The apostrophe does not count as a consonant or a vowel in any of the > > Lojban word-formation rules, which rely on consonant and vowel patterns. > > If it were an h, we would probably have great difficulty keeping this > > clear. > > > > lojbab > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jared > > "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is > knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, > there is the Universe" > > "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" > > "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" > > "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" > -- mu'o mi'e .topy'at. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu