From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Oct 28 11:50:03 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ImDD0-0002Jz-Ur for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:50:03 -0700 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ImDCt-0002Ik-BX for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:50:02 -0700 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 19so2559260fkr for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:49:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=5XXz6Rlbr6kQhDeSGH0++6SPgX9ZVm6DHQWTuALz0yg=; b=lRJjVxQS6u8u0gbS4drVXltb66HraILilffLEBlffb5eAY47Hc+t+zjBo1toGas2uoG1tU6yzODwRdxIfx7wa8W/NDEktdQXRbVnhdFMlSDwj/NwxxdE+/OKn01PEqnp3RnAiUVzxu0nv2x1L5eG0/ClDip2dG3BsxbtNfxoJU0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=kbI4/f7oTNrWwD08OgLJd5wp5BE/YclFTJvZeimcLJyEecvwX2Hwg7XlFFpmcQbV5PAL8KRVEk/fqbb9dCXA7lfbSGBj1PV8ap8kDTrXxz/zhXjiK1CRZpDldeTY3TG/Ft61+uLXR6+2nGOunTZasdkEGhitr2bcoamjVXFKCGo= Received: by 10.82.134.12 with SMTP id h12mr10183402bud.1193597393088; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.112.20 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2204fa080710281149y6f3c5caal9097bb5d746e1c82@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:49:52 -0500 From: "Jared Angell" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: geodesic dome In-Reply-To: <200710281811.OAA24625@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_12292_30051600.1193597393077" References: <200710281811.OAA24625@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5728 X-Approved-By: jkominek@miranda.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: angell.jared@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_12292_30051600.1193597393077 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 10/28/07, der Mouse wrote: > > > I'm quickly discovering that the Lojban community is a group of > > people that don't take the language more seriously really than as a > > intellectual game which my level is apparently zero in and therefore > > I don't have a right to discuss the weaknesses and problems of the > > game that could be worked on. > > That this is your perception (which I am entirely ready to believe) > does not mean that it is fact (which I don't believe). > > I'm not much of a lojbanist myself. But, while I've seen weaknesses in > lojban, I haven't decided that I know better than the people who have > been working on lojban for decades how fixable they are. > > Every language has weaknesses, lojban included - weaknesses of varying > degrees of fixability. But fixing any problem has costs. Until I > (feel I) understand the language as it is, which I am a long way from, > I won't be (resp. feel I am) ready to try to determine the costs of > fixing problems and decide what's a good tradeoff - perhaps fixing a > problem would involve losing some other property that is even more > valuable, and, until I have my head around the language, I won't be > competent to make those decisions. > > This doesn't stop me from seeing weaknesses. I think I've even > mentioned a few of them. But I've taken the experts' word for it when > they speak to the subject; they are the experts, and I know better than > to second-guess them on their field of (relative) expertise. > > > My present inability to speak Lojban doesn't make it impossible for > > me to notice weaknesses as this exercise with a geodesic dome has > > demonstrated. > > No. But it does mean that you probably are not competent to fix them, > nor even to pronounce on how fixable they are. > > And, on a completely different note, it would help if you could learn > and apply proper email quoting etiquiette. Every time you top-post and > fail to trim context (which combination seems to be your usual modus > operandi) you push me closer to mentally killfiling you as someone who > can't be bothered to put even minimal effort into producing readable > email. I didn't realize that there was some problem with that. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > > -- Jared "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, there is the Universe" "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_12292_30051600.1193597393077 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 10/28/07, der Mouse <mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca> wrote:
> I'm quickly discovering that the Lojban community is a group of
> people that don't take the language more seriously really than as a
> intellectual game which my level is apparently zero in and therefore
> I don't have a right to discuss the weaknesses and problems of the
> game that could be worked on.

That this is your perception (which I am entirely ready to believe)
does not mean that it is fact (which I don't believe).

I'm not much of a lojbanist myself.  But, while I've seen weaknesses in
lojban, I haven't decided that I know better than the people who have
been working on lojban for decades how fixable they are.

Every language has weaknesses, lojban included - weaknesses of varying
degrees of fixability.  But fixing any problem has costs.  Until I
(feel I) understand the language as it is, which I am a long way from,
I won't be (resp. feel I am) ready to try to determine the costs of
fixing problems and decide what's a good tradeoff - perhaps fixing a
problem would involve losing some other property that is even more
valuable, and, until I have my head around the language, I won't be
competent to make those decisions.

This doesn't stop me from seeing weaknesses.  I think I've even
mentioned a few of them.  But I've taken the experts' word for it when
they speak to the subject; they are the experts, and I know better than
to second-guess them on their field of (relative) expertise.

> My present inability to speak Lojban doesn't make it impossible for
> me to notice weaknesses as this exercise with a geodesic dome has
> demonstrated.

No.  But it does mean that you probably are not competent to fix them,
nor even to pronounce on how fixable they are.

And, on a completely different note, it would help if you could learn
and apply proper email quoting etiquiette.  Every time you top-post and
fail to trim context (which combination seems to be your usual modus
operandi) you push me closer to mentally killfiling you as someone who
can't be bothered to put even minimal effort into producing readable
email.

I didn't realize that there was some problem with that.

/~\ The ASCII                           der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X  Against HTML               mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email!           7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B






--
Jared

"There is no emotion, there is peace;  there is no ignorance, there is knowledge;  there is no passion, there is serenity;  there is no death, there is the Universe"

"Work smart when you can and hard if you must"

"When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat"

"Open Source: The light side of computing.  It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_12292_30051600.1193597393077--