From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Oct 28 09:18:15 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 29 Oct 2007 09:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ImAq6-0005jc-Os for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:18:15 -0700 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.188]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ImAq4-0005jM-FW for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:18:14 -0700 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 19so2512741fkr for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=cpRCtVaH8umApl6FV0FR0kPFRTew3D4JMswaI/xiLsI=; b=hcYgUuoMIqcwxl6MXw7Q14Gv/T3utaGCMwHGNYmDEzF8KSs9sjMHaFeerO2/sj1OMyzcQ1+BD2gscBOnbNKr3e4daT4YYuSkm78V9doK0vR0afzJMsGdpwjNRge93oIMJQ1HJvOUGYmM+O/YstU7aUsuGVbRGZeM0tPbETloKJk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=nmsVSQTovhHDR/SYvQToi9aQIaIjZkpp3nEFoBYvVNQ9aDJ9jE9n5mfOTeuaHDXTGSdXZfoK7BW78yEC0Q3cBt5K6J76dZdV3ETyxdmDyZQzR29p4S7PsOXRuLCHkQEOEle3ySn6MWYBGbsJyW+7RY9grMWQgM5neRwfXLCQG7Y= Received: by 10.82.112.3 with SMTP id k3mr9988994buc.1193588289880; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.82.112.20 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 09:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2204fa080710280918m78ec8989i2a62157b05a7064d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:18:09 -0500 From: "Jared Angell" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Quick Reference Guide for language words In-Reply-To: <200710281120.42422.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11919_416258.1193588289871" References: <975a94850710270735t210f5212s8d39dd0003c08578@mail.gmail.com> <975a94850710271658m5bdfbb23y7a0c7b271ad5acba@mail.gmail.com> <200710281120.42422.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 5744 X-Approved-By: jkominek@miranda.org X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: angell.jared@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_11919_416258.1193588289871 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, I think it's hard for us to conceptualize sometimes that Lojban bridi aare more like computer instructions or Logical expressions or mathematical forumli than natlang statements. I personally find that to be the most charming aspect of Lojban, but it is the quintessential point of confusion in our (human beings) attempt to master the language from what I can tell. For computers the point of confusion lies elsewhere. I think it is important to try to think of Lojban as a middle ground between machine thought and bio-thought. Djared/Farlus On 10/28/07, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Saturday 27 October 2007 19:58, Joel Shellman wrote: > > > rafsi: affix syllable (like a suffix or prefix) > > > > This doesn't tell me much of what it's used for. Are rafsi used for > > any purpose other than lujvo generation? > > Yes; they're also used for making type 3 fu'ivla. For example, {fiprgado} > is > made of {fip-}, the rafsi of {finpe}; a hyphen-letter; and "Gadus", the > genus > name. > > Lujvo are used for both compounding and derivation. Derivatives are most > words > formed by adding a rafsi of a cmavo, such as {selbri}, {tolmorji}, and > {nuncasnu}. Lujvo formed by adding rafsi of selma'o GOhA, such as > {comdaidza} "thingamajig", are compounds. Comparatives and superlatives, > unlike in English, are compounds. > > > > tanru: metaphoric modifier-phrase > > > > interesting, how is it metaphoric? > > Often it isn't; that word was chosen for the keyword in the gimste for > reasons > I don't know. {gerku zdani}, in the usual sense of {gerzda} or in the > dwelling-of-fleas sense, is not metaphoric but literal. > > > > bridi: sentence made of arguments connected by a relationship > > > > I'd be a little concerned about using "sentence" flat out... it's not > > necessarily the same. In logic terms, a bridi is a predicate, right? > > So, I could say a "predicate composed of a relationship and its > > arguments." Oh! Well, yeah, that's what shows up on jbovlaste, so > > yeah, that works for me. > > "sentence" is {jufra}; that word can be used for a string of bridi > connected > by conjunctions or for an interjection, neither of which is a bridi. > > "predicate", as the term is used in English grammar (and IE grammar in > general), is {brirebla}, not {bridi}. > > > > sumti: an argument in a sentence. > > > > I'm going to say "argument to a selbri in a bridi" as that can be > > stated without qualification, I assume. > > The term "argument" is used in rarbau gerna in this sense, but it's not > found > in your average English grammar. > > Pierre > > > > -- Jared "There is no emotion, there is peace; there is no ignorance, there is knowledge; there is no passion, there is serenity; there is no death, there is the Universe" "Work smart when you can and hard if you must" "When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat" "Open Source: The light side of computing. It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_11919_416258.1193588289871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Yes, I think it's hard for us to conceptualize sometimes that Lojban bridi aare more like computer instructions or Logical expressions or mathematical forumli than natlang statements.

I personally find that to be the most charming aspect of Lojban, but it is the quintessential point of confusion in our (human beings) attempt to master the language from what I can tell.  For computers the point of confusion lies elsewhere.

I think it is important to try to think of Lojban as a middle ground between machine thought and bio-thought.

Djared/Farlus

On 10/28/07, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Saturday 27 October 2007 19:58, Joel Shellman wrote:
> > rafsi: affix syllable (like a suffix or prefix)
>
> This doesn't tell me much of what it's used for. Are rafsi used for
> any purpose other than lujvo generation?

Yes; they're also used for making type 3 fu'ivla. For example, {fiprgado} is
made of {fip-}, the rafsi of {finpe}; a hyphen-letter; and "Gadus", the genus
name.

Lujvo are used for both compounding and derivation. Derivatives are most words
formed by adding a rafsi of a cmavo, such as {selbri}, {tolmorji}, and
{nuncasnu}. Lujvo formed by adding rafsi of selma'o GOhA, such as
{comdaidza} "thingamajig", are compounds. Comparatives and superlatives,
unlike in English, are compounds.

> > tanru: metaphoric modifier-phrase
>
> interesting, how is it metaphoric?

Often it isn't; that word was chosen for the keyword in the gimste for reasons
I don't know. {gerku zdani}, in the usual sense of {gerzda} or in the
dwelling-of-fleas sense, is not metaphoric but literal.

> > bridi: sentence made of arguments connected by a relationship
>
> I'd be a little concerned about using "sentence" flat out... it's not
> necessarily the same. In logic terms, a bridi is a predicate, right?
> So, I could say a "predicate composed of a relationship and its
> arguments." Oh! Well, yeah, that's what shows up on jbovlaste, so
> yeah, that works for me.

"sentence" is {jufra}; that word can be used for a string of bridi connected
by conjunctions or for an interjection, neither of which is a bridi.

"predicate", as the term is used in English grammar (and IE grammar in
general), is {brirebla}, not {bridi}.

> > sumti: an argument in a sentence.
>
> I'm going to say "argument to a selbri in a bridi" as that can be
> stated without qualification, I assume.

The term "argument" is used in rarbau gerna in this sense, but it's not found
in your average English grammar.

Pierre






--
Jared

"There is no emotion, there is peace;  there is no ignorance, there is knowledge;  there is no passion, there is serenity;  there is no death, there is the Universe"

"Work smart when you can and hard if you must"

"When a system is corrupt then it's time for a reformat"

"Open Source: The light side of computing.  It's never too late to join" ------=_Part_11919_416258.1193588289871--