From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Dec 10 06:45:07 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:45:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J1jsY-0007zt-Kj for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:45:06 -0800 Received: from squid17.laughingsquid.net ([72.32.93.144]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J1jsT-0007yP-Sv for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:45:06 -0800 Received: (qmail 11005 invoked by uid 48); 10 Dec 2007 06:44:56 -0800 Received: from c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net (c-75-68-233-37.hsd1.vt.comcast.net [75.68.233.37]) by webmail.ixkey.info (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:44:56 -0800 Message-ID: <20071210064456.obg5cc71ogwgg4ss@webmail.ixkey.info> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 06:44:56 -0800 From: mungojelly@ixkey.info To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: newbies troubles 2 References: <000001c83aa8$5793cd40$06bb67c0$@com> In-Reply-To: <000001c83aa8$5793cd40$06bb67c0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.4) X-Spam-Score: 1.8 X-Spam-Score-Int: 18 X-Spam-Bar: + X-archive-position: 5853 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@ixkey.info Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Quoting Alex Bruce : > I was thinking maybe some exercises in translation would help. Does anyone > have some paragraphs or anything that translate well into lojban? > > Or maybe you have another strategy I can use? I would suggest writing original material rather than translation. Try to think Lojbanically, and just use whatever words you know, rather than worrying "what is the Lojban word for (X)." Don't try to say anything fancy at first! For instance you may know that "gerku" is a gismu for "dog" (if not, you're learning right now, congratulations!), and you probably know "klama" from it being used as an example all over the place. You can make a bunch of sentences out of those: mi klama lo gerku -- I travel to the dog. \--> se invert that: lo gerku cu se klama mi \--> or move the selbri: mi lo gerku cu klama lo gerku cu klama mi -- The dog travels to me. \--> se invert that: mi cu se klama lo gerku \--> or move the selbri: lo gerku mi klama If you learn a new word, like "sepi'o" means "using the tool" (a BAI cmavo), use it a bunch of times (at least in your mind) to try it out: dei jufra sepi'o lo'u sepi'o li'u -- This sentence uses "sepi'o" mi klama lo gerku sepi'o lo plise -- I go to the dog using the apple (maybe it gives me the energy to walk?! whatever!) ko siclu sepi'o le ctebi be fi do -- Whistle using your lips! > Lojban does offer a way to sort of say the quoted example but like any joke > is ruined If you tell people the answer, sarcasm is ruined if you let on > that it is sarcasm (other than through a condescending tone) Well you should understand that a "sarcastic tone" is part of the expressive repertoire of the English language. Tone as a discursive device seems natural to a native English speaker and not like part of the language, but actually you have learned English sentence tones from hearing English. Chinese, of course, uses tone differently! (Tone also serves discursive purposes in Chinese, but has to interact with the strong tones of syllables.) Even in other European languages, you can notice that there are different sentence tone shapes with subtly different meanings than those in English. Lojban-- and no one is saying that Lojban isn't weird here ;)-- expresses most of what is expressed in English through sentence tone using cmavo, particularly the UI cmavo. Translating UI cmavo into English words almost always sounds bizarre-- they're usually more properly translated by tone! For instance "zo'o" means "I'm saying this humorously," which is pretty silly to say in words in English, but we promise you that "zo'o" is a common word around these parts & it really does serve the same purpose as a "humorous tone" does in English. ".uiro'a" means "I am feeling a social happiness!" -- if you said that in words in English, you would not be feeling a social happiness about the way that people looked at you :), but ".uiro'a" is a very sensible thing to say in Lojban. One sarcastic device that translates perfectly well into Lojban from English is English's "...NOT!" as in: I go to the market... NOT! .i mi klama le zarci ... naku sai! mu'o mi'e bret.