From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 30 09:08:43 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:08:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J91eS-0006x8-Fd for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:08:43 -0800 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.181]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J91eO-0006wq-5d for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:08:40 -0800 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id m16so6413339waf.20 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:08:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; bh=TfBXCgK45ExvcrtBEpwV51OMxfF2sjZ2YY9hTQ1g5ok=; b=TZmr8uTgpLcap64WnZkKgGVK92ByavqtAkkZvAFoXAnwLM7MclXfmGqSyZYtdKY3R88g/LGY0XNHWtPO0SLLkCPdDEKbM/QEbltzFBbEqIUVXAXq4iZpC5WB4TVYsRGiCNeVRnpwTxprpnXCdLxTQj0NQ9lsyT+pABnC72WD3lc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=xSn2uQ8/QSM8H3/AiKUSEBgGYixBazdQJ1/+epAnaZdExK8NFkidaj/09ZohZBioPTPf08DGzttcHYImaJDymMYtq2VV2lvC3MhZz1azhRixTdJz92hYI4hvhwHNAGjBbKDC0IrxdNqlH8Jogc59lWMdpBir6lsU2+cRUTA01Uk= Received: by 10.114.152.17 with SMTP id z17mr11364230wad.128.1199034512948; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:08:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.135.9 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 09:08:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2f91285f0712300908l379651c5o91cde87e8b81960e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:08:32 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners Subject: [lojban-beginners] confusing gismus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 87 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners mi'e vid Some gismus are confusing to me. I compare them as follows: dicra (x1 (event) interrupts/stops/halts/[disrupts] x2 (object/event/process) due to quality x3) zunti (x1 (evt./state) interferes with/hinders/disrupts x2 (evt./state/process) due to quality x3 (ka)) le nu le mamta cu sanga cu dicra le nu le bersa cu tadni kei le ka cladu le nu le mamta cu sanga cu zunti le nu le bersa cu tadni kei le ka cladu spaji (x1 (event/action abstract) surprises/startles/is unexpected [and generally sudden] to x2) jenca (x1 (event) shocks/stuns x2) le nu le mlatu cu morsi binxo cu spaji le nixli le nu le mlatu cu morsi binxo cu jenca le nixli Also there are some pairs which share a very similar meaning with different place structures that I wonder why they haven't been invented or simplified as a single gismu: sumne (x1 (experiencer) smells/scents (transitive verb) x2; x2 smells/has odor/scent to observer x1) panci (x1 is an odor/fragrance/scent/smell emitted by x2 and detected by observer/sensor x3) le xrula cu pluka se sumne le mamta le xrula cu pluka se panci fi le mamta cecla (x1 launches/fires/shoots projectile/missile x2, propelled by x3 [propellant/propulsion]) danti (x1 is a ballistic projectile [e.g. bullet/missile] for firing by [gun/propelling launcher] x2) le se cecla be ti cu barda le danti be ti cu barda Other pairs include: mluni (x1 is a satellite/moon orbiting x2 with characteristics x3, orbital parameters x4) lunra (x1 is Earth's moon (default); x1 is a major natural satellite/moon of planet x2) molki (x1 is a mill/foundry/industrial plant/[assembly line] performing process x2) fanri (x1 is a factory/foundry/industrial plant/mill producing x2 from materials x3) zalvi (x1 [individual or mass of hard surfaces] grinds/pulverizes/crushes x2 into powder x3) marxa (x1 [force] mashes/crushes/squashes/smashes x2 into pulp/mash/crumbs/deformed mass x3) skapi (x1 is a pelt/skin/hide/leather from x2) pilka (x1 is a crust/rind/peel/skin/hide/outer cover of x2) mu'o