From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 30 13:18:38 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J95YL-0008Nm-OG for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:18:38 -0800 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.176]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J95YG-0008NI-OX for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:18:37 -0800 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id m16so6523233waf.20 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:18:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=SI9ckq7r5ZyPpxqLcgVkGwy9hGy4JtarnPUNL186J74=; b=scgXJ5msezeJxR6IkVyr6DBNWeg3AC/EMOYqKRWIvofdt1sf/OXtkskzQsxbusn9qI1McbR37Zd22oxtG7my2ZGALg2im+u160aXxdrlOHTc/iYMs2t/ZQxRosGeqztqZm0o4xy/gIE1Jc5jeLZ+h1ZDIGT7T2VvM1dRNVCR6tg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=hpt6OjM+3dxVFGq8Rn4wLbTLz8YntpTIZO2tz/JU7ER4SxDr0C5GGtH7VlnuuGZCBQEubW1xrXaQt9GTnIGQs6ZCF4xDGPzB/dR57usRLg7MVLrKQDk0pkGU6WmoNoUf3X4hW7+imyMEeMKBkhg9hMd3B9fImB9tLkVisyueJjY= Received: by 10.114.171.1 with SMTP id t1mr12024031wae.83.1199049509472; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:18:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.135.9 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 13:18:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2f91285f0712301318h9863e1bhc207f79e64ff182d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:18:29 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Orthography In-Reply-To: <266107.38228.qm@web56401.mail.re3.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <266107.38228.qm@web56401.mail.re3.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 89 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > I believe it would be possible to develop a method for writing Lojban using > Chinese characters, but it would require a lot of work from someone with a > very thorough knowledge. I figure you would need to assign at least one > character for each word and one for each rafsi. > > mu'o mi'e .sen. Example: jbena / 生 djedi / 日 jbena djedi / 生日 (birthday) bacru / 言 sance / 音 bacru sance / 言音 ba'usna / 諳 (pronunciation) spati / 木 slabu / 古 spati slabu / 木古 (plant-kind-of getting-old / wither) spasau 枯 枯, like 諳, is a single character, with 木 and 古 as its components, which parallels the actual lujvo composition. In this case, the two rafsi are respectively represented by the compressed shape (or the "radical") of each character assigned to the originating gismu. The form itself will not indicate which rafsi is used when there are more than one (ex. "dje" or "dei" of "djedi"), just like nothing indicates on the fly what combination of place structures is intended. But it can be defined on the vlaste, just like the place structure can only be determined in there. This would involve a departure from the audio-visual isomorphism, yet I opine this can give rise to more intelligibility of lujvo since their components (rafsi) immediately tells which gismu the word comes from (so that one will be able to understand, if not pronounce, all Lojban texts once he/she has memorized all gismu and cmavo but rafsi). The radical's position, in addition to its shape, may help distinguish the type of rafsi. 普, 明, and 旭 all share the same radical 日, and this variety of position can possibly correspond to the variety of type of rafsi (CVC, CCV, CVV) assigned to each gismu. Examples (their meanings may be nonsense, but just to illustrate how the morphology would work): djedi / 日 pordje / 普 (porsi djedi / 並日) sozdei / 旭 (so djedi / 九日) When it's at the bottom, 日 becomes "dje"; when it's on the right side, it's "dei"; when it's alone, it's the gismu or the 5-letter rafsi "djedi". Another trick will be necessary for making fu'ivla. Like "djedngaifoks" (an annual British celebration). The problem is how to represent the 4-letter rafsi & the hyphen & the following Lojbanized names. A possiblity might be to use Japanese Katakana, which has natively coexisted with Chinese characters: djedngaifoks -> 日ンガイフォクス. Unfortunately, Katakana (and Hiragana) is syllabary and cannot represent any single consonant separately except "n" ("ス" is "su", and there is no real equivalent for "s"), so that most Katakana renditions of fu'ivla are bound to be invalid according to the grammar. Korean Hangul, which is a phonemic alphabet and has a history of coexistence with Chinese characters, would be a better option. mi'e vid