From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sun Dec 30 15:03:53 2007 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J97CC-0003uE-GZ for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:03:53 -0800 Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.179]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J97C5-0003ts-2k for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:03:52 -0800 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id m16so6568140waf.20 for ; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:03:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=S82fVy/pK6+hasNWvLsCR9Yk94QOdSRX9n7YCP0ZZLw=; b=UnHoUklY88zhUWcg2vfgz2ThXw99GeYxjCVa3fBkUtRCBBA4Uv1Uw1d1ANs6BBPp7s5IqPtyHhBol3QxYR7wPkNBg+h92Ec0dnYImuaWoHjTfhdetrfdDqPk35IVrHkL9MhYrWDJN8+geHRsvz6dSwNEAgjhCfuN1ajbBfxAUm0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=A3VDE8/tVNuYgFweEMh/MnPNjpcytZzxY4JFvyUODAbNARociQxOLcuKKwGu1ebkAu28DZrsVfWm6X8EGYw4bo3oOlNlC92GzFna5ky/vxLjaQplvaH90GHLpvctWEfCY/xWxJm+Hr5qiT0tTdSXR0dYY/KNEepZR7u5Zr/x9CY= Received: by 10.114.175.16 with SMTP id x16mr10977385wae.12.1199055823850; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.135.9 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Dec 2007 15:03:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <2f91285f0712301503wa216cc9o18bc45ea7dd04a48@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 00:03:43 +0100 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: confusing gismus In-Reply-To: <20071230110938.lvwyvup5kwsc04g4@webmail.ixkey.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0712300908l379651c5o91cde87e8b81960e@mail.gmail.com> <20071230110938.lvwyvup5kwsc04g4@webmail.ixkey.info> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 X-Spam-Score-Int: 1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 92 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners coi bret Thank you, I appreciate your response. > > mluni (x1 is a satellite/moon orbiting x2 with characteristics x3, > > orbital parameters x4) > > lunra (x1 is Earth's moon (default); x1 is a major natural > > satellite/moon of planet x2) > > > A "mluni" includes just about anything that orbits a planet, including > I believe man-made satellites and so forth. A "lunra" is only a very > substantial satellite, such as our moon. Yes, but I don't understand why "lunra" should lack such essantial meanings which are found in the x3 and x4 of "mluni". Natural moons are equally likely to possess particular characteristics & orbital parameters as man-made satellites are. Since a thing's artificiality or non-artificiality can easily be expressed with "rutni" or "rarna" respectively whenever precision is needed, I don't really see why these two gismu haven't been unified, allowing for more derivative lujvo. Their glosses, "satelite/moon" and "lunar" are already confusing, I feel. > > molki (x1 is a mill/foundry/industrial plant/[assembly line] > > performing process x2) > > fanri (x1 is a factory/foundry/industrial plant/mill producing x2 from > > materials x3) > > > I'm not sure about this one, but it seems like a "molki" doesn't > necessarily produce a tangible product? I think there are many cases in which it does. Wikipedia has dedicated articles on cotton mill, paper mill, sawmill, gristmill, steel mill, sugar mill, among others, all of which produce tangible products. Also I wonder why a "fanri" should not have a process while a "molki" should. > I think with words like "skapi" and "lunra" you must allow that Lojban > is not intended to avoid having a *human* bias. ;) It's interesting because Lojban does not have a human bias with "prenu", which I think is a nice thing. R2-D2 from Star Wars can be called a "prenu" because it displays personality, zo'o. As for "lunra", I think there is also non-anthropocentric aspect to it, since it's a word which exclusively denotes a product of the nature, with no artificial counterpart. mu'o mi'e vid