From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jan 01 10:17:03 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J9lfi-0005px-77 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:17:03 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.188]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J9lfd-0005pf-T3 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:17:02 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so3727565rvf.46 for ; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:16:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=RqqUEkG+FrrD5mXVuIQTpwOv9fRRoPuqeF6L+GTPAHc=; b=fMbApotJGtBgoFrY33iCLcwvQPEOAUWC08RUpA9rGKfKQ8cLfLN+1b/pso8NWxXPVH13PLZ/dU7GdY5ECaFYNjIUzIQDdsLd5SwqqXSGY9FyPUN0COxr91Em8aG5QSgHEhB7K9jcFAgYYW524To3Wll2Mn0MT+JcoxfcnCjt2B8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=fMNnjiWqTFmPDOpPuAMHhDwAzKoNjAWgAXJx6JLxg3FG0fYoACAc/TbYit+oc6Y5uRRkGtQvrZRnEl/Sml/jDGrYRxyvKP4bwIWc62o9VagWvz1h4r8TlG8+XxXC4S63lrDW0ovMZPefpuwXHT4h5Zf5TCZLStY5Wd7hfpUaKIQ= Received: by 10.141.185.3 with SMTP id m3mr6905542rvp.236.1199211416199; Tue, 01 Jan 2008 10:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.190.17 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Jan 2008 10:16:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96f789a60801011016q4eec42e6p409490f982c694ab@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 13:16:56 -0500 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: di'e gimsnu be zo xanka, was Re: the black hole of keyworditis In-Reply-To: <20080101091514.wxpdnp7aqskkkw04@webmail.ixkey.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_19478_16423628.1199211416192" References: <2f91285f0712300908l379651c5o91cde87e8b81960e@mail.gmail.com> <20071230110938.lvwyvup5kwsc04g4@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560712301407j353e0f17j264267c967937b91@mail.gmail.com> <20071230144732.4i70hzzqosk4ogcs@webmail.ixkey.info> <925d17560712310340j7a5cdf55l639a87dc1afd6c59@mail.gmail.com> <20071231134734.tgxeg0ra8gsoowko@webmail.ixkey.info> <4779CF45.2040709@lojban.org> <20071231234906.p1i1u6qigww4osso@webmail.ixkey.info> <96f789a60801010503r3132c8d1w127278d2545b1fc4@mail.gmail.com> <20080101091514.wxpdnp7aqskkkw04@webmail.ixkey.info> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 109 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_19478_16423628.1199211416192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Jan 1, 2008 12:15 PM, wrote: > > > la meris xanka lo nu selkavbu loi pulji kei lo nu tolselfla ke sutra > > litru > > (Mary is nervous about being caught by the police, while speeding.) > > So it seems like what you're suggesting is that a terxanka is a > situation in which there is something to worry about, and the selxanka > is the negative consequence which could result from the terxanka. Ummm... not exactly. I'm suggesting that the selxanka is something that is worrying/troubling a person, and terxanka is under what circumstances such anxiety takes/could take place (see below). One thing I wonder about is whether there's an implication that the > terxanka is a real situation. That is, you could be explicit by > putting a "da'i" or a "da'inai" in the terxanka bridi, but which is > more likely to be implied (absent a clear context)? It seems like > "nervous" angles towards "da'inai," a real situation provoking a > specific response, while "anxious" would suggest to me more "da'i", a > sort of situation in which someone tends to react with anxiety. > I believe that all bridi that specify a "under conditions" place (xanka, pluta, zifri, frili, nandu, etc.) are making no truth claims about the presence/absence about those conditions, but are merely qualifying that these are the situations where X1 _would be_ xanka,etc. So Mary is anxious about being caught by police WERE she to speed. Donald Trump is worried about where his next meal is coming from IF he were poor, etc. Without that place specified, it implies the person is xanka, etc. at whatever time and/or place narrowed down by the tenses, or else generally xanka, etc. --gejyspa ------=_Part_19478_16423628.1199211416192 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On Jan 1, 2008 12:15 PM, <mungojelly@ixkey.info> wrote:

> la meris xanka lo nu  selkavbu  loi  pulji kei lo nu tolselfla ke sutra
> litru

(Mary is nervous about being caught by the police, while speeding.)

So it seems like what you're suggesting is that a terxanka is a
situation in which there is something to worry about, and the selxanka
is the negative consequence which could result from the terxanka.
 
Ummm... not exactly.  I'm suggesting that the selxanka is something that is worrying/troubling a person, and terxanka is under what circumstances such anxiety takes/could take place (see below).   

One thing I wonder about is whether there's an implication that the
terxanka is a real situation.  That is, you could be explicit by
putting a "da'i" or a "da'inai" in the terxanka bridi, but which is
more likely to be implied (absent a clear context)?  It seems like
"nervous" angles towards "da'inai," a real situation provoking a
specific response, while "anxious" would suggest to me more "da'i", a
sort of situation in which someone tends to react with anxiety.

  I believe that all bridi that specify a "under conditions" place (xanka, pluta, zifri, frili, nandu, etc.) are making no truth claims about the presence/absence about those conditions, but are merely qualifying that these are the situations where X1 _would be_ xanka,etc.  So Mary is anxious about being caught by police WERE she to speed.  Donald Trump is worried about where his next meal is coming from IF he were poor, etc.  Without that place specified, it implies the person is xanka, etc. at whatever time and/or place narrowed down by the tenses, or else generally xanka, etc.

               --gejyspa


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