From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jan 09 03:56:20 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:56:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JCZXg-0003P6-29 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:56:20 -0800 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.159]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1JCZXb-0003Oo-M4 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:56:19 -0800 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so221084fga.0 for ; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:56:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=D0YMfQtTMunpXbCIsBISic9wnB/KNCJ3XM+RzYDhxys=; b=JOH59SOoRvAO6tbBW7rc0pP2+ebYf8bhU/IpsW1qxXCKobVhbcOkqd5uoOL1SZC7WiwgkuoLbRXUhMFdlcf2R4vg+QY6R3q4MDNsPyri9UIEbsprVZog86zFNhwi6H0NAjCVLR0Vb8LPDS+QOIYpz255u3Sypkq9vvPW5wFknt0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Ry2V5K/cItzVlCExxPkrqI4+LcnTi1LgzM/g//2ZsVn9ZfxLBkDfE24TjlXzKS89NXKxmVzWNZykyajnhaV+yV2IstqCHBAYgAzt2ecGyfNAF+6Sbts1seeZed57JG6kRjG5uWKAZA5bO7qvGCTkcCKhY1MXh2OUbwqswkhH678= Received: by 10.86.62.3 with SMTP id k3mr593401fga.15.1199879773708; Wed, 09 Jan 2008 03:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.86.1.11 with HTTP; Wed, 9 Jan 2008 03:56:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560801090356o358e4747pd81ba3ee2328730d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 08:56:13 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: towns and countries In-Reply-To: <12d58c160801082242t754f0465l4196666d4dce628a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <343420.76244.qm@web88014.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <775125.33467.qm@web56402.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <97f5058c0801082154y2258c1deyec0f326dd3f02b64@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160801082242t754f0465l4196666d4dce628a@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 191 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 1/9/08, komfo,amonan wrote: > > {ndj} {mz} and {kv} cannot be reliably distinguished aurally from {nj} {mbz} > and {kf}/{gv}. I believe that's why those clusters shake out like that. If this was based on some serious study reflecting human speech recognition capabilities, those restrictions would be easier to swallow, but since they seem to be based on the arbitrary impressions of someone or other, they are really a pain. I can accept the {kv} restriction as part of the general proscription of unvoiced-voiced pairs. At least it's a general enough principle. The eventual confusion of {mz} with {mbz} cannot really be the issue because {mbz} cannot appear in lujvo. Isn't {mt} just as likely to be confused with {mpt}, for example? Why single out {mz}? (The best theory I heard about this one is that it was introduced so that JCB, James Cook Brown, would not have an easy time lojbanizing his name.) Are ndj/nj really more easily confused than rdj/rj or ldj/lj? Are there any studies that show that? I wouldn't be surprized if even "s" and "f" are more easily confused than "ndj" and "nj". mu'o mi'e xorxes